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  1. #16
    TonySK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    I'm not strictly focusing on Mexican illegals. I've said repeatedly that all illegals are a problem as well as legal immigration. We need to take a break to assimilate and take care of the people that are already here.



    It's one good, practical solution that works. That's the important thing. But hey, if you've got a better way to stop half a million/year illegals, do tell.



    Wages are matter of supply and demand. Lot's of workers = lot's of supply of labor = low wages. Limited supply of labor and wages have to increase to attract the labor.



    Um, no. Minimum wages are artificially government imposed wages that don't allow the market to set the proper level of wages.



    Demand for the product of the wages will indeed naturally find the proper balance. Don't want to pay $3.00 for a lb. of tomatoes, demand goes down, producers lower production or find another way to cut costs through mechanization rather than pay for more expensive human labor.



    See the above, plus of course that higher wages mean that people have more money in their pocket to spend for higher priced goods.



    I guess I care more about Americans then worry about how Mexico will struggle with 10% less money that was taken from potential American pockets.




    Yeah, we get it. Walls don't work. Shoelaces don't work. Hoses don't work. Nothing works perfect. Nirvana fallacy.

    Of the 51 fortified boundaries built between countries since the end of World War II, around half were constructed between 2000 and 2014.

    Why? Because walls do work.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mexico/483156/

    Oh, and ironically, Mexico is building a 'wall'... on its southern border (to keep illegal immigrants out). Perhaps even more ironic, The US is sending $75m in equipment and training to help stop Central Americans from crossing illegally into Mexico.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...ss-who-paid-it




    Cool. Let's see how well they do with higher priced US made shit vs how well we do with higher priced Mexican made shit. If they don't want a trade war, then they can just kick in and help with our wall like we helped with their wall.



    LOL, so we should be bribing them with aid so that they will trade with us? I'm guessing they will trade whether we bribe them or not.




    Supply and demand of labor sets wages as explained above. No willing labor, and wages rise. Rising wages means more income for workers to buy stuff.



    Walls work and they work well. Not perfect but very well. I've put to rest now all the excuses from the OP why a wall won't work. Most of the discussion here has be back and forth about economics. There are plenty of options on funding the wall. That is really a non-issue.

    Several European countries have erected fences to keep migrants out, and, according to the numbers, every case appears to have a large impact.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...art-has-answer
    Then why make Mexico pay for the wall if there are more returning then entering now?

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    Confluency (10-08-2016)

  3. #17
    Confluency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    I'm not strictly focusing on Mexican illegals. I've said repeatedly that all illegals are a problem as well as legal immigration. We need to take a break to assimilate and take care of the people that are already here.
    I'm well aware illegal immigration is a problem, but I'm also well aware walls are not a valid solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    It's one good, practical solution that works. That's the important thing. But hey, if you've got a better way to stop half a million/year illegals, do tell.
    But, it's not? And yeah, the practical solution would be keeping the foreign aid and supporting those countries in the fight against corruption and helping make the country they are leaving better. A wall is nothing more than a shortsighted solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Wages are matter of supply and demand. Lot's of workers = lot's of supply of labor = low wages. Limited supply of labor and wages have to increase to attract the labor.
    While you'd be right in the majority of jobs, dirty and generally low paying jobs do not fit in that category. The supply of workers will not effect the wages, because people will refuse to work unless the wages are crazy high. And if they were crazy high the person paying the wages for said dirty job would most likely have a net-loss of profits. As I said before, as seen in Alabama when you get rid if the illegals it becomes impossible to find people who want to work generally low paying hard work dirty jobs. It's american culture.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Um, no. Minimum wages are artificially government imposed wages that don't allow the market to set the proper level of wages.
    No, the wages would be set by companies creating pay norms and disrupting proper wealth distribution. Companies would pay lower wages, and increase sales prices of necessities.



    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    find another way to cut costs through mechanization rather than pay for more expensive human labor.
    I'll let you re-read this.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    See the above, plus of course that higher wages mean that people have more money in their pocket to spend for higher priced goods.

    And we're going to pretend like we live in a uptopia where the average price of a good is balanced by the average wage a person gets? No. The more money people have the higher goods will be.
    And it will always be in the favor of the goods maker. That's how capitalism fucking works.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    LOL, so we should be bribing them with aid so that they will trade with us? I'm guessing they will trade whether we bribe them or not.
    It's a mutual trade relationship, it's not a fucking bribe. Mexico pays low wages and pumps out low priced product for the U.S to jerk off over. If you disrespect the relationship they will simply react in the same way lmfao. The foreign aid is something Mexico expects, and the US expects cheap goods for low prices. Win-Win.




    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    I'm guessing they will trade whether we bribe them or not.
    You guessed and you were wrong. Know what Mexico will do every other fucking country does? Increase Trade relations with China. Cut foreign aid and all you'll simply see is Mexico saying "Lol, USA will still buy our shit product because they know their domestic manufacturing is too expensive and we'll just go import from China instead".

    USA wants to keep Mexico happy because it's in their interest to do so, that's how politics works. In trading aspects we need them more than they need us. The only one up we have is foreign aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Supply and demand of labor sets wages as explained above. No willing labor, and wages rise. Rising wages means more income for workers to buy stuff.
    I'm telling you when it comes to hard work and generally low paying jobs the wages will not increase by relatively anything. If you need an example google the fucking Alabama immigration law failure. IT DOESN'T WORK. IT WENT THROUGH AND COMPLETELY FAILED.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Yeah, we get it. Walls don't work. Shoelaces don't work. Hoses don't work. Nothing works perfect. Nirvana fallacy.
    They do their job, a wall wouldn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Walls work and they work well. Not perfect but very well. I've put to rest now all the excuses from the OP why a wall won't work. Most of the discussion here has be back and forth about economics. There are plenty of options on funding the wall. That is really a non-issue.
    Uh wut, your answers for how the wall will be paid for is destroying trade relations with other countries, cutting foreign aid, and making it less attractive to trade with us. Herpaderp.

    It's a huge fucking issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Several European countries have erected fences to keep migrants out, and, according to the numbers, every case appears to have a large impact.
    Yeah, let's take small sample sizes relative to the US and say it works. Walls will work in the US because it somewhat worked in Europe! Kind of how ironically the left wing says socialism would work in the US because it works in smaller European countries huh?

    I skipped some of your other points because it would just be a back and forth of things that really don't matter such as the "I care about muh american ppl" bs. It's hard to extrapolate some of my other points because I'm on mobile but hey, this is fun.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TonySK View Post
    Then why make Mexico pay for the wall if there are more returning then entering now?
    And yeah, I completely skipped one of the points I was going to make. More illegal mexicans are leaving then entering the USA in 2016.

    http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/1...ng-to-the-u-s/

    What this whole "illegal immigration is a huge crisis that needs to be solved NOW" boils down to is that it's a tactic used by right wing leaders to try and get voters united on an issue. The right-wing states are predominately welfare bum ridden and instead of finding a solution to Americans abusing the welfare system the Republican push the blame on illegals as to why they have no job and need to live off of the governments ballsack.
    Last edited by Confluency; 10-08-2016 at 10:31 PM.

  4. #18
    PTMartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonySK View Post
    Then why make Mexico pay for the wall if there are more returning then entering now?
    I already answered that:
    1. Your claim that there is a net loss is highly questionable. Your own citation says, "Measuring migration flows between Mexico and the U.S. is challenging because there are no official counts of how many Mexican immigrants enter and leave the U.S. each year."

    We do know that through the first six months of fiscal 2016, which ended on March 31, border officials apprehended 27,754 unaccompanied children, the CBP reported — a 78 percent jump from the 15,616 apprehended in 2015, and just shy of the 28,579 apprehended in 2014.

    For family units, which consist of at least one child traveling with at least one adult, the increase was even more dramatic. In the first six months of 2016, 32,117 families were apprehended, the CBP reported — an increase of 131 percent from the 2015 figure (13,913) and 62 percent from the 2014 figure (19,830).

    So there absolutely is an increase in illegal immigration and "The forces driving the migration are still strong," with no reason to believe that the illegals are leaving in increasing numbers.
    http://thehill.com/latino/278785-mig...mexican-border

    2. Even if true, wall would accelerate that ratio.



    Quote Originally Posted by Confluency View Post

    I'm well aware illegal immigration is a problem, but I'm also well aware walls are not a valid solution.
    It's one good, practical solution that works. That's the important thing.


    But, it's not? And yeah, the practical solution would be keeping the foreign aid and supporting those countries in the fight against corruption and helping make the country they are leaving better. A wall is nothing more than a shortsighted solution.
    Ah the old, "spend money to make their country as good as ours, that way they won't come here..." argument. No thanks. Our constitution has been available for over 200 years for them to model our success off of. They don't get it, and trying to export our culture over there won't work no matter how much money you spend. Some cultures are better than others.


    While you'd be right in the majority of jobs, dirty and generally low paying jobs do not fit in that category. The supply of workers will not effect the wages, because people will refuse to work unless the wages are crazy high. And if they were crazy high the person paying the wages for said dirty job would most likely have a net-loss of profits. As I said before, as seen in Alabama when you get rid if the illegals it becomes impossible to find people who want to work generally low paying hard work dirty jobs. It's american culture.
    Horseshit. "there really are no jobs that Americans won't do." Look it up: http://cis.org/are-there-really-jobs-americans-wont-do


    It's a mutual trade relationship, it's not a fucking bribe.
    You're the one that claims Mexico won't trade with us unless we send them aid. That's a bribe. And completely silly.


    USA wants to keep Mexico happy because it's in their interest to do so, that's how politics works. In trading aspects we need them more than they need us. The only one up we have is foreign aid.
    Somehow I think we'll be just fine without cheap Mexican goods, but of course we won't have to. China and everywhere else can supply us with the cheap shit we want. Mexico could disappear from the face of the earth and we'd be just fine thank you.


    Uh wut, your answers for how the wall will be paid for is destroying trade relations with other countries, cutting foreign aid, and making it less attractive to trade with us.

    It's a huge fucking issue.
    Nothing will be destroyed, Mexico directly or indirectly can pay for the wall in multiple ways, funding the wall is a non-issue.


    Yeah, let's take small sample sizes relative to the US and say it works. Walls will work in the US because it somewhat worked in Europe! Kind of how ironically the left wing says socialism would work in the US because it works in smaller European countries huh?
    Your shoelace may work, but mine, mine are different. Mine don't work. We have special dirt and walls and immigrants. Walls made with our materials, and placed on our soil, and against Mexican illegals don't work. That's why walls won't work here.

    What this whole "illegal immigration is a huge crisis that needs to be solved NOW" boils down to is that it's a tactic used by right wing leaders to try and get voters united on an issue.
    You said, "I'm well aware illegal immigration is a problem," now you seem to say it's all made up. Which is it?

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