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  1. #1
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    Why a Wall Won't Stop Immigration

    I just finished watching the newest episode of Adam Ruins Everything; its primary focus was on illegal immigration in America and the flaws of the system in place. Here's a small part of the episode that they released on YouTube about why a wall won't fix America's immigration problem - I suggest anyone who is interested in this to watch the full episode.

    Sources used in the episode

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    PTMartin's Avatar
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    "It would have to stretch over 2,000 miles of terrain."

    Great wall of china is 5500 miles long. 2000 would be a piece of cake.

    "And all of that destruction would be monstrously expensive. It would cost a whopping $12 to $25 billion just to build"

    Good thing Mexico will be paying for it then.

    "It'd easily be one of the most expensive single pieces of infrastructure in American history. It would cost as much as 20 Hoover Dams or the entirety of NASA's annual budget. "

    And far more valuable than putting a man on the moon or Mars.

    "Because it's estimated that between 27 and 40 percent of all undocumented immigrants came here on planes."

    Nirvana fallacy.

    "Mexico's economy is doing quite well and population growth has slowed way down, so there isn't much pressure to immigrate. Illegal border crossings are actually at an all-time low."

    500,000 thousand per year is 500,000 too many.

    "The fact is, they're already here. Nearly one out of every 30 people in America is an unauthorized immigrant."

    See the above.

  3. #3
    Aborted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Great wall of china is 5500 miles long. 2000 would be a piece of cake.
    The Great wall of China took over 200 years and 800,000 people to build, with most being civilians forced to work day and night in unsafe conditions, not at all a piece of cake.
    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Good thing Mexico will be paying for it then.
    How exactly do you think this is going to work? Ring up Mexico and send them a bill? Outside of war, what possible action could the US take to force Mexico to pay for it? Sanctions would hurt us even more than it would hurt Mexico due to how much trade we conduct with them. The wall would be on US soil, there is nothing legally or governmental we could do to force their hand without breaking international treaties. It's not 1950 anymore, the US is no longer a rebellious teenager who bought their first gun and is itching to shoot it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    And far more valuable than putting a man on the moon or Mars.
    How? The burden of illegal immigrants isn't getting any higher, and a vast majority of illegal residents immigrated before 2000; if all illegal immigration stopped right now, we wouldn't be any better off. Besides, the influx of workforce has positive effects on the economy as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    500,000 thousand per year is 500,000 too many.
    Why? Based solely on principle? Because the economic effects are not nearly as negative as most anti-immigration sources cite.
    When the earth is changed into a humid dungeon,
    In which Hope like a bat
    Goes beating the walls with her timid wings
    And knocking her head against the rotten ceiling;
    When the rain stretching out its endless train
    Imitates the bars of a vast prison
    And a silent horde of loathsome spiders
    Comes to spin their webs in the depths of our brains,
    All at once the bells leap with rage
    And hurl a frightful roar at heaven,
    Even as wandering spirits with no country
    Burst into a stubborn, whimpering cry.
    — And without drums or music, long hearses
    Pass by slowly in my soul; Hope, vanquished,
    Weeps, and atrocious, despotic Anguish
    On my bowed skull plants her black flag.

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    Confluency (10-08-2016),Hydrogen (10-08-2016)

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    If he builds a wall, ladders and rope will go up in price.
    News - Guides - Fun - Discussions








    MPGH History:
    Joined 09-29-2016

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aborted View Post
    The Great wall of China took over 200 years and 800,000 people to build, with most being civilians forced to work day and night in unsafe conditions, not at all a piece of cake.
    Good thing We've got 2200 years of technology to help out since then.

    How exactly do you think this is going to work? Ring up Mexico and send them a bill? Outside of war, what possible action could the US take to force Mexico to pay for it? Sanctions would hurt us even more than it would hurt Mexico due to how much trade we conduct with them. The wall would be on US soil, there is nothing legally or governmental we could do to force their hand without breaking international treaties. It's not 1950 anymore, the US is no longer a rebellious teenager who bought their first gun and is itching to shoot it.
    You haven't been paying attention to the proposals, have you? A few of the many ways to get them directly or indirectly to pay:
    1. Levy a wire transfer tax on all funds sent to Mexico.
    2. Increase the cost of Visas on people coming to the US from Mexico.
    3. Charge a tariff on goods coming over the border from Mexico.
    4. increase fees on all border crossing cards.
    5. increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico.
    6. Cut the foreign aid to Mexico.


    How? The burden of illegal immigrants isn't getting any higher, and a vast majority of illegal residents immigrated before 2000; if all illegal immigration stopped right now, we wouldn't be any better off.
    330,000 last year where CAUGHT. Double that for the ones that got through. It's a disaster that continues.

    Besides, the influx of workforce has positive effects on the economy as well.
    If you consider cheap labor for big business and cheap labor for your gardener and house cleaner positive, sure. The reality is the crime, depressed wages for US citizens, cost of government benefits, etc. far outweighs any alleged "positive effects".


    Why? Based solely on principle? Because the economic effects are not nearly as negative as most anti-immigration sources cite.
    See the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Learnding
    If he builds a wall, ladders and rope will go up in price.
    Yep, walls don't work. Just like shoes don't work because they become untied, and buckets don't work because they can spill...
    Last edited by PTMartin; 10-07-2016 at 04:10 PM.

  7. #6
    Aborted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Yep, walls don't work. Just like shoes don't work because they become untied, and buckets don't work because they can spill...
    Well it's confirmed, you're fucking retarded.
    Guess I won't be wasting my time debating your dumb ass.
    When the earth is changed into a humid dungeon,
    In which Hope like a bat
    Goes beating the walls with her timid wings
    And knocking her head against the rotten ceiling;
    When the rain stretching out its endless train
    Imitates the bars of a vast prison
    And a silent horde of loathsome spiders
    Comes to spin their webs in the depths of our brains,
    All at once the bells leap with rage
    And hurl a frightful roar at heaven,
    Even as wandering spirits with no country
    Burst into a stubborn, whimpering cry.
    — And without drums or music, long hearses
    Pass by slowly in my soul; Hope, vanquished,
    Weeps, and atrocious, despotic Anguish
    On my bowed skull plants her black flag.

  8. #7
    PTMartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aborted View Post
    Well it's confirmed, you're fucking retarded.
    Guess I won't be wasting my time debating your dumb ass.
    Couldn't handle my utter destruction of your points, so you throw out a couple of Ad hominems then disappear. Bye bye.
    Last edited by PTMartin; 10-07-2016 at 07:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Good thing We've got 2200 years of technology to help out since then.
    It's also a good thing we have advanced mathmatics to calculate the cost of maintaining the wall and how much it'll cost just to build.

    Now let's go through these "points that caused utter destruction"


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    1. Levy a wire transfer tax on all funds sent to Mexico.
    Who would regulate this? Is it full proof? What about loopholes? Trump didn't pay taxes so why exactly should someone sending money to mexico have to?

    But no for real, that "tax" would pale in comparison to the price of the wall.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    2. Increase the cost of Visas on people coming to the US from Mexico.
    Ah yes, there is an immigration problem so what's the answer? Let's make it more unnattractive to immigrate to the US via legal ways, and make it more attractive to come illegally. What a fucking solid plan!


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    3. Charge a tariff on goods coming over the border from Mexico.
    Do you understand economics or nah? Tariffs = more money being spent by the exporter, more money being spent by the exporter = increased prices of goods. It'd counteract itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    4. increase fees on all border crossing cards.
    5. increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico.
    As stated before, it really fucking boggles my mind how you can state illegal immigration is such a problem and in the same breath wish to make it harder for LEGALS to enter the country lmfao. You're truly a fucking idiot.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    6. Cut the foreign aid to Mexico.
    Foreign aid to mexico is a couple hundred million. You think the decades upon decades of maintaining the wall, and the initial building process will be covered by 400 million? Are you daft?


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    cost of government benefits, etc. far outweighs any alleged "positive effects".
    I think the irony here is that there is a problem with people abusing government benefits, but it isn't the illegals, it's ignorant right wing states who statistically call for tax cuts but take the most government financial support. Most illegals pay taxes, and the ones that don't still pay taxes on the things they buy.

    Cheap Labor = more people employed.
    More people employed = more spending.
    More spending = more taxes being collected by the government.



    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    It's a disaster that continues
    The real disaster is right wing welfare bum states calling for government spending cuts and collecting the most money. It's a common tactic used by the right wing to shift blame on anybody but themselves. Remember, if something stinks the first thing you do is look under your own shoe and not the person beside you.
    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Yep, walls don't work. Just like shoes don't work because they become untied, and buckets don't work because they can spill...

    Lol wut.

  10. #9
    TonySK's Avatar
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    Immigration from Mexico has been declining, they are not the main source of illegal immigrants. So why have them pay for the wall? You are not accounting for Haitians, Chinese, Salvadorian, Honduran, Cuban, and others coming from different countries.
    Last edited by TonySK; 10-08-2016 at 01:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Confluency View Post
    Who would regulate this?
    The government, just like they regulate all other taxes and fees levied.


    Is it full proof? What about loopholes?
    Nirvana fallacy. Look it up.

    Trump didn't pay taxes so why exactly should someone sending money to mexico have to?
    To pay for the wall. Illegals come here, take jobs from citizens, drive down wages, and send the money back to Mexico.

    But no for real, that "tax" would pale in comparison to the price of the wall.
    Last year, more than $120 billion was sent to Mexico. At 10% the wall is paid for in 10 years with just this source of income alone. Add in all the other ones and the wall is paid for in half that time or less, and annual maintenance is perpetually covered.

    Ah yes, there is an immigration problem so what's the answer? Let's make it more unnattractive to immigrate to the US via legal ways, and make it more attractive to come illegally. What a fucking solid plan!
    Let's make it more unattractive to come legally and illegally.


    Do you understand economics or nah? Tariffs = more money being spent by the exporter, more money being spent by the exporter = increased prices of goods. It'd counteract itself.
    Apparently more so than you. Increased cost of imports = more competitive domestic goods = more demand = more jobs and higher wages for citizens.


    As stated before, it really fucking boggles my mind how you can state illegal immigration is such a problem and in the same breath wish to make it harder for LEGALS to enter the country lmfao. You're truly a fucking idiot.
    Oops, you really didn't think it all through before starting the name calling, did you? The name calling is a sure sign you've lost the argument.

    Foreign aid to mexico is a couple hundred million. You think the decades upon decades of maintaining the wall, and the initial building process will be covered by 400 million? Are you daft?
    See the above. The foreign aid alone will cover the annual maintenance. The savings to the tax payers in illegal benefits and reduced crime alone will cover the annual maintenance. Funding the wall and maintaining the wall with no additional expense to the US tax payer is easily done.

    Most illegals pay taxes, and the ones that don't still pay taxes on the things they buy.
    No they don't. Does, "working under the table" mean anything to you? They do kick in a bit from sales taxes to the states, but add up the cost of crime, incarceration, free medical, and education, and it's a net loss by far.

    Cheap Labor = more people employed.
    More people employed = more spending.
    More spending = more taxes being collected by the government.
    Cheap labor = low wages. Perfect for big business. Not so good for for the wage earner.


    Lol wut.
    Nirvana fallacy. Look it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by TonySK
    Immigration from Mexico has been declining, they are not the main source of illegal immigrants. So why have them pay for the wall?
    Because they are the main source of illegal immigrants

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    The government, just like they regulate all other taxes and fees levied.




    Nirvana fallacy. Look it up.



    To pay for the wall. Illegals come here, take jobs from citizens, drive down wages, and send the money back to Mexico.



    Last year, more than $120 billion was sent to Mexico. At 10% the wall is paid for in 10 years with just this source of income alone. Add in all the other ones and the wall is paid for in half that time or less, and annual maintenance is perpetually covered.



    Let's make it more unattractive to come legally and illegally.




    Apparently more so than you. Increased cost of imports = more competitive domestic goods = more demand = more jobs and higher wages for citizens.




    Oops, you really didn't think it all through before starting the name calling, did you? The name calling is a sure sign you've lost the argument.



    See the above. The foreign aid alone will cover the annual maintenance. The savings to the tax payers in illegal benefits and reduced crime alone will cover the annual maintenance. Funding the wall and maintaining the wall with no additional expense to the US tax payer is easily done.



    No they don't. Does, "working under the table" mean anything to you? They do kick in a bit from sales taxes to the states, but add up the cost of crime, incarceration, free medical, and education, and it's a net loss by far.



    Cheap labor = low wages. Perfect for big business. Not so good for for the wage earner.




    Nirvana fallacy. Look it up.



    Because they are the main source of illegal immigrants
    It has been proven that more are returning to their country than coming in.

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    PTMartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonySK View Post
    It has been proven that more are returning to their country than coming in.
    If true, that would be great, and a wall would accelerate that ratio. Unfortunately, it's not true.

    But the number of illegals was shocking, surging to at least 550,000 in 2014 and 2015, up from 350,000 in 2012 and 2013. That's the size of Albuquerque, N.M.

    The report dispels projections that immigration — legal and illegal — would drop due to a pull back in immigrants from Mexico. Instead, it has grown with new countries in Latin America, Cuba and Asia fueling the surge.
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ce...rticle/2592688

    And again, Mexico and Latin America are still the biggest source of illegal immigrants, followed by East and South Asia. I'm all for shutting down those illegals too. They mainly overstay their visas so greater monitoring and control over that is crucial. That doesn't take away the value of the wall though, or the rationale for having Mexico and Mexicans pay for it.

    http://cis.org/New-Data-Immigration-...-2014-and-2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    If true, that would be great, and a wall would accelerate that ratio. Unfortunately, it's not true.



    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ce...rticle/2592688

    And again, Mexico and Latin America are still the biggest source of illegal immigrants, followed by East and South Asia. I'm all for shutting down those illegals too. They mainly overstay their visas so greater monitoring and control over that is crucial. That doesn't take away the value of the wall though, or the rationale for having Mexico and Mexicans pay for it.

    http://cis.org/New-Data-Immigration-...-2014-and-2015
    My point is that you are strictly focusing on Mexican immigrants when there are people from around the world who are entering as well.

    http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/1...ng-to-the-u-s/

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Nirvana fallacy.
    It's ironic because although there aren't any perfect solutions, a wall most certainly is not close to being the best one.


    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    To pay for the wall. Illegals come here, take jobs from citizens, drive down wages, and send the money back to Mexico.
    Cool, they drive down wages for low skilled jobs. Getting rid of illegals won't increase wages. For example you can simply look at Alabama and how they've pretty much gotten rid of the majority of illegals and now they can't find people to work the cheap paying dirty jobs.

    The wages are low because minimum wage is low. Even if the wages did increase, the goods they produce would also increase and it would counteract itself. If you need an example, google the failed Alabama immigration law. Americans do not want to work dirty and hard jobs, it's the general culture of the country.
    So you're simply wrong,low wages mean cheaper goods allowing the average American to purchase low priced items.



    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Last year, more than $120 billion was sent to Mexico. At 10% the wall is paid for in 10 years with just this source of income alone. Add in all the other ones and the wall is paid for in half that time or less, and annual maintenance is perpetually covered.

    That missing 10% would most certainly destroy the economy of Mexico. And what's even worse is we'd be using that 10% to build a wall that won't work. If illegals want to enter a country, they will find a way.
    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Apparently more so than you. Increased cost of imports = more competitive domestic goods = more demand = more jobs and higher wages for citizens.
    Uh, me no tinks u understand trade relatons between the U.S and Mexico. The US is at a trade deficit with Mexico at about 50B. If the U.S were to increase Tariffs then Mexico would quite literally do the same thing. Hurting american manufacturers once again, and killing jobs. So you are objectively wrong and have made zero progress in this debate.
    Things aren't black and white, when there is an action there is a reaction.

    Yeah, let's fucking cut foreign aid to one if our biggest trading partners. As said before, an action will always have a reaction. And when your action is cutting foreign aid to one of your biggest trade partners you can most certainly expect a surprise in return.




    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    See the above. The foreign aid alone will cover the annual maintenance. The savings to the tax payers in illegal benefits and reduced crime alone will cover the annual maintenance. Funding the wall and maintaining the wall with no additional expense to the US tax payer is easily done.
    Quote Originally Posted by PTMartin View Post
    Cheap labor = low wages. Perfect for big business. Not so good for for the wage earner.
    Perfect for all buisness, illegals take the jobs americans statistically refuse to take and in return the goods are cheaper and that " wage earner" can buy low.

    TL;DR If your answer is to economically punish your biggest trade partner to pay for a wall that will not even remotely solve the problem it's being built for, it's not going to work out very well.

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    PTMartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonySK View Post
    My point is that you are strictly focusing on Mexican immigrants when there are people from around the world who are entering as well.
    I'm not strictly focusing on Mexican illegals. I've said repeatedly that all illegals are a problem as well as legal immigration. We need to take a break to assimilate and take care of the people that are already here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confluency

    It's ironic because although there aren't any perfect solutions, a wall most certainly is not close to being the best one.
    It's one good, practical solution that works. That's the important thing. But hey, if you've got a better way to stop half a million/year illegals, do tell.

    Cool, they drive down wages for low skilled jobs. Getting rid of illegals won't increase wages. For example you can simply look at Alabama and how they've pretty much gotten rid of the majority of illegals and now they can't find people to work the cheap paying dirty jobs.
    Wages are matter of supply and demand. Lot's of workers = lot's of supply of labor = low wages. Limited supply of labor and wages have to increase to attract the labor.

    The wages are low because minimum wage is low.
    Um, no. Minimum wages are artificially government imposed wages that don't allow the market to set the proper level of wages.

    Even if the wages did increase, the goods they produce would also increase and it would counteract itself.
    Demand for the product of the wages will indeed naturally find the proper balance. Don't want to pay $3.00 for a lb. of tomatoes, demand goes down, producers lower production or find another way to cut costs through mechanization rather than pay for more expensive human labor.

    So you're simply wrong,low wages mean cheaper goods allowing the average American to purchase low priced items.
    See the above, plus of course that higher wages mean that people have more money in their pocket to spend for higher priced goods.

    That missing 10% would most certainly destroy the economy of Mexico.
    I guess I care more about Americans then worry about how Mexico will struggle with 10% less money that was taken from potential American pockets.


    And what's even worse is we'd be using that 10% to build a wall that won't work. If illegals want to enter a country, they will find a way.
    Yeah, we get it. Walls don't work. Shoelaces don't work. Hoses don't work. Nothing works perfect. Nirvana fallacy.

    Of the 51 fortified boundaries built between countries since the end of World War II, around half were constructed between 2000 and 2014.

    Why? Because walls do work.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mexico/483156/

    Oh, and ironically, Mexico is building a 'wall'... on its southern border (to keep illegal immigrants out). Perhaps even more ironic, The US is sending $75m in equipment and training to help stop Central Americans from crossing illegally into Mexico.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...ss-who-paid-it


    Uh, me no tinks u understand trade relatons between the U.S and Mexico. The US is at a trade deficit with Mexico at about 50B. If the U.S were to increase Tariffs then Mexico would quite literally do the same thing.
    Cool. Let's see how well they do with higher priced US made shit vs how well we do with higher priced Mexican made shit. If they don't want a trade war, then they can just kick in and help with our wall like we helped with their wall.

    Yeah, let's fucking cut foreign aid to one if our biggest trading partners. As said before, an action will always have a reaction. And when your action is cutting foreign aid to one of your biggest trade partners you can most certainly expect a surprise in return.
    LOL, so we should be bribing them with aid so that they will trade with us? I'm guessing they will trade whether we bribe them or not.


    Perfect for all buisness, illegals take the jobs americans statistically refuse to take and in return the goods are cheaper and that " wage earner" can buy low.
    Supply and demand of labor sets wages as explained above. No willing labor, and wages rise. Rising wages means more income for workers to buy stuff.

    TL;DR If your answer is to economically punish your biggest trade partner to pay for a wall that will not even remotely solve the problem it's being built for, it's not going to work out very well.
    Walls work and they work well. Not perfect but very well. I've put to rest now all the excuses from the OP why a wall won't work. Most of the discussion here has be back and forth about economics. There are plenty of options on funding the wall. That is really a non-issue.

    Several European countries have erected fences to keep migrants out, and, according to the numbers, every case appears to have a large impact.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...art-has-answer

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