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  1. #31
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizzie_backup View Post
    Lucifer , is a fallen Angel. He was envious of Humans, and thought we are not worthy of God's love, he revolted against God, and was cast to the below by St. Michael the Archangel and God's army. (err i think thats it.) but hes just a fallen angel, not a demi-god etc, i basically think it was a 'shrooms story made by Dante. lol
    Well if fallen angels have supernatural powers wouldn't they have to be, to some capacity, mini-gods? Because let's be honest, the only reason God's are ascribed that title is because they are purported to have some form of supernatural ability.
    Last edited by Paroxysm; 04-24-2010 at 12:25 AM.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  2. #32
    Lizzie_backup's Avatar
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    That's where it gets tricky, he basically doesn't have any special powers, besides those that angels have, Which to be honest, I have no clue what they are.. flying? materialization? sounds more like sci-fi than religion. I would have to do some research as to what exactly angels supposedly have as far as power, but I don't think any supernatural ability gives you the automatic "God" title.

    I think Lucifer exists, to try and persuade mankind to renounce God, it's sort of like every hero in every story ever told needs an anti-hero, a villain. Lucifer is God's anti-hero.

  3. #33
    Luke420's Avatar
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    Hmm i see .

  4. #34
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizzie_backup View Post
    That's where it gets tricky, he basically doesn't have any special powers, besides those that angels have, Which to be honest, I have no clue what they are.. flying? materialization? sounds more like sci-fi than religion. I would have to do some research as to what exactly angels supposedly have as far as power, but I don't think any supernatural ability gives you the automatic "God" title.

    I think Lucifer exists, to try and persuade mankind to renounce God, it's sort of like every hero in every story ever told needs an anti-hero, a villain. Lucifer is God's anti-hero.
    What I've had issue with the whole lucifer thing is that, from what I remember, God has to allow Satan to do the things he does, so wouldn't that make God evil by proxy? Essentially by acting as an accessory for evil?

    Regarding the whole God's thing, here's my understanding. We base the title of an entity based on their capacity to do work, All-powerful beings are called Gods, and sometimes less powerful beings are still called Gods, then we have the demi-gods and all that jazz.

    How do the Christians know that Satan is the evil one? Couldn't God just be a malicious God, that went out of his way to deceive mankind and convince them that he's the good one and use Satan as a scapegoat?

    Also, what if Satan wanted to be good? Would God limit his free will and not allow Satan to be good to keep the protagonist-antagonist relationship going?

    Frankly if all Satan wanted to do is screw with Gods plan and get as many souls as possible, all he would have to do is make hell pleasant, then everyone would want to go.
    Last edited by Paroxysm; 04-24-2010 at 01:21 AM.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  5. #35
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    Why don't you all agree to disagree.

    Regardless of how many hours you argue over the same topics, little will be accomplished. You could debate for every second for the rest of your life and come to no greater conclusions, only more and more questions no one can answer.

    Maybe the height of understanding is; Understanding that not everything, more often nothing, makes perfect sense. If there is anything that can described as that.
    Last edited by Tiresome; 04-24-2010 at 01:34 AM.

  6. #36
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    What I've had issue with the whole lucifer thing is that, from what I remember, God has to allow Satan to do the things he does, so wouldn't that make God evil by proxy? Essentially by acting as an accessory for evil?

    Regarding the whole God's thing, here's my understanding. We base the title of an entity based on their capacity to do work, All-powerful beings are called Gods, and sometimes less powerful beings are still called Gods, then we have the demi-gods and all that jazz.

    How do the Christians know that Satan is the evil one? Couldn't God just be a malicious God, that went out of his way to deceive mankind and convince them that he's the good one and use Satan as a scapegoat?

    Also, what if Satan wanted to be good? Would God limit his free will and not allow Satan to be good to keep the protagonist-antagonist relationship going?

    Frankly if all Satan wanted to do is screw with Gods plan and get as many souls as possible, all he would have to do is make hell pleasant, then everyone would want to go.
    Ok paroxysm, let me put it to you in the easiest way for me.
    -Christians aren't going to call God evil for what Satan did. The logic just isn't there. I don't believe the Greeks ever cursed Cronos(?)for creating hades, its basically the same thing.
    -Your totally fixed on God being evil. Not that it would be a bad thing, but asking quesitons like in the above quote is redundant. "couldn't god just be a malicious god?" well yes, he could. So could you. You see "could" is a possibility. but it "IS" to the christians that he's a kind God.

    Also, judging christianity by Greek order of Gods isn't really the best approach.


  7. #37
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Ok paroxysm, let me put it to you in the easiest way for me.
    -Christians aren't going to call God evil for what Satan did. The logic just isn't there. I don't believe the Greeks ever cursed Cronos(?)for creating hades, its basically the same thing.
    -Your totally fixed on God being evil. Not that it would be a bad thing, but asking quesitons like in the above quote is redundant. "couldn't god just be a malicious god?" well yes, he could. So could you. You see "could" is a possibility. but it "IS" to the christians that he's a kind God.

    Also, judging christianity by Greek order of Gods isn't really the best approach.
    1. Cronus
    2. Cronus wasn't omniscient so he couldn't know what Hades (the god) would do. Also, Hades himself claimed dominion of the underworld, it wasn't thrust upon him.
    3. Hades (The Underworld) isn't all evil, to my understanding after the mythology included judgement in Hades, there were three areas where mortals went after they died, one for the wicked, one for the neutral and Elysium for the righteous.
    4. The Greek Gods weren't omniscient nor were they all-good or all-evil, Yahweh on the other hand is purported to be omni-benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. So Yahweh can be held responsible for his actions or the actions of Lucifer by proxy, because Yahweh committed conscience evil. If I had a son and he grew up to be a serial killer, that wouldn't necessarily be my fault, but if I intentionally conditioned him to feel no sympathy for other human beings, told him human beings are of no value and that he has the right to kill them or at the very least ignored misanthropic or sociopathic tendancies, then I would be even more to blame for my sons actions then he.
    5. It's nonsensical to claim Lucifer had free will and thus he could go against God, because Lucifer would have known God was omniscient and would know of his attempted coup.
    6. I'm not fixed on God being an evil being, I'm just bringing in a possible alternative that would be even more consistent with Gods purported actions.
    And I'm curious how one could justify God being a good being in light of this alternative.
    Last edited by Paroxysm; 04-24-2010 at 11:58 AM.
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  8. #38
    arunforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Well let me ask, is the BELIEF of the religion, or the bystanders view. Hindus themselved believe that its polytheistic, christians don't. So in the end its calling on anothers beliefs without understanding.
    I've heard some say it's monotheistic as well. I have also heard Christians (ex-Christians possibly?) say it's polytheistic.

    So basically Christianity is monotheistic because you say so, and Hinduism is polytheistic because you say so. Even though there is one supreme god which all are derived from in both religions.




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  9. #39
    Dead Bones Brook's Avatar
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  10. #40
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    1. Cronus
    2. Cronus wasn't omniscient so he couldn't know what Hades (the god) would do. Also, Hades himself claimed dominion of the underworld, it wasn't thrust upon him.
    3. Hades (The Underworld) isn't all evil, to my understanding after the mythology included judgement in Hades, there were three areas where mortals went after they died, one for the wicked, one for the neutral and Elysium for the righteous.
    4. The Greek Gods weren't omniscient nor were they all-good or all-evil, Yahweh on the other hand is purported to be omni-benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. So Yahweh can be held responsible for his actions or the actions of Lucifer by proxy, because Yahweh committed conscience evil. If I had a son and he grew up to be a serial killer, that wouldn't necessarily be my fault, but if I intentionally conditioned him to feel no sympathy for other human beings, told him human beings are of no value and that he has the right to kill them or at the very least ignored misanthropic or sociopathic tendancies, then I would be even more to blame for my sons actions then he.
    5. It's nonsensical to claim Lucifer had free will and thus he could go against God, because Lucifer would have known God was omniscient and would know of his attempted coup.
    6. I'm not fixed on God being an evil being, I'm just bringing in a possible alternative that would be even more consistent with Gods purported actions.
    And I'm curious how one could justify God being a good being in light of this alternative.
    Well, since i'm all about reasons, let me tell you what i see.
    -Atheist.
    -Atheist claming Christian God is evil.
    -Atheist giving argument on Satan being God's intention, or rather God allows satan/evil to exist.

    Ok now let me ask you this. Since your an atheist, and you don't believe in God, what is the point of you saying that God is evil?. Does it strengthen your reason? Ok, so one person who was fine and happy with God existing, now believes God doesn't exist. Ultimately whats the point?
    --------------------------------------------

    That being said, you seem to have a horrible time understanding the concept of free will.

    Free will is basically the ability to "do what you want". Think about this, you do what you want 100% of the time, whether you realise it or not.


  11. #41
    Liz's Avatar
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    I think anything men say should be taken with a grain of salt. Thousands of years ago, actually hundreds, human sacrifice was a way to please the Gods.. so religion changed to fit mankind. So if it can changed to suit mankind, whose to say what the truth, (the origin) is.
    Last edited by Liz; 04-24-2010 at 11:16 PM.


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  12. #42
    EndRiT's Avatar
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    I found this to be quite insightful:
    http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...fore_islam.htm

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