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  1. #31
    Sir Nathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Ok so I read through your argument one more time and my response is in green, red seems a bit too confrontational. Sorry for taking so long to respond, I'll try to be quicker in the future.



    Ok, hopefully I cleared some things up and my response is satisfactory. I'd like to talk a bit more but we all have lives outside of arguing over the internet

    Feel free to respond to any and all comments I made or point out any points of your argument you feel I've overlooked, either here, in private chat or ask for my email and we can talk over that.

    I'm excited to hear your response and am willing to continue this discussion if you wish, if you'd like to discuss this over skype, vent or teamspeak just PM me and we can arrange something.


    Bibliography:

    Harris, Stephen L., Understanding the Bible (Palo Alto: Mayfield, 1985) p. 355

    Mack, Burton L. (1996), "Who wrote the New Testament" the making of the Christian myth" (HarperOne Publishing)
    Bam, now that's a fair response y'all. No flaming or raging, acting with profesionallism (I'm not and English native speaker so idk if it's the word) and not fanatism (the correct term?). I have to admit that well many words you sued up there remind unknown for me, but they did not interfere with my understanding of your point. I'm PM'ing my msn t you so we can discuss this deeply, it is a greeat pleasure I must admit.
    God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.

  2. #32
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Lust is sexual attraction, it serves as a means for people to breed. Love is incentive for the couple to stay together. Your response doesn't address any of the points.

    If your argument is that god exists in the same sense that love exists then that would make your god a concept, any link you try to connect will inevitably suffer from the equivocation fallacy. But feel free to present it either way and we can move on from there.

    You assume that I'm unwilling to believe your argument, if your argument was valid I would believe you but unfortunately it isn't which I've demonstrated in my response. If you are unwilling to present arguments then gtfo, I want to talk to people that are actually willing to have discussions instead of regurgitating the same rhetoric.
    -*swoosh*(-10 points)
    -Saying one is another, when one isn't. And not getting that i'm linking the two arguments, not saying both are the same thing.(-20points)
    -One thing I really hate about atheist, their just as fanatic as the religious people. Your not going to believe anything we say because your blinded by your own beliefs(-40points).

    Damn....already negative?


  3. #33
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    -*swoosh*(-10 points)
    -Saying one is another, when one isn't. And not getting that i'm linking the two arguments, not saying both are the same thing.(-20points)
    -One thing I really hate about atheist, their just as fanatic as the religious people. Your not going to believe anything we say because your blinded by your own beliefs(-40points).

    Damn....already negative?
    Dude you know what, you clearly have no intention of actually discussing anything, all you care about is posting an arm-chair contradiction and feigning victory and frankly that's disingenuous.

    Please demonstrate that atheists are just as dogmatic as theists, because all I've seen is you being a condescending prick. I've laid out the criteria for convincing me that a god exists, all I'm asking for is evidence and logically consistent, sound arguments. Neither of those are extraordinary requests.
    Ultiamtely if you have nothing of value to say then don't post.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  4. #34
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    double post, my bad.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  5. #35
    -Lame's Avatar
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    Paroxysm, i really see no point discussing this matter.
    this will only drag us into an empty circle.

  6. #36
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo-dash View Post
    Paroxysm, i really see no point discussing this matter.
    this will only drag us into an empty circle.
    Fine I'll rephrase my question so it's easier for you guys.


    Can you give me any reason why I should believe your god exists?
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  7. #37
    Empire's Avatar
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    Well, since i'm a Christian, that'd be a no for you lulz.

    Truly i have benifited from this religion, and i do like it, and i truly believe in it.

    My personal belief is that its better to have belief that something is good, than to believe that something is bad. Doesn't apply to all things, but to this it does.

    But you obviously have issues with parents and other christians, so I know that you're inclined to look at all the negative aspects of something while blindly ignoring the good.


  8. #38
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Well, since i'm a Christian, that'd be a no for you lulz.

    Truly i have benifited from this religion, and i do like it, and i truly believe in it.

    My personal belief is that its better to have belief that something is good, than to believe that something is bad. Doesn't apply to all things, but to this it does.

    But you obviously have issues with parents and other christians, so I know that you're inclined to look at all the negative aspects of something while blindly ignoring the good.
    Listen it's not that I ignore the positive benefits of religion or beliefs in gods, nor I am inclined to promote dystheism, which is the belief that a god or gods exist but they are evil. The only reason I brought that up in our previous discussions is because the belief that God is or Gods are good is the status quo and rarely questioned and is a question worth investigating for theists. You're making very broad generalizations about my personality based on almost benign statements which I think is grossly unfair.

    Dude, I don't hold the position that Christianity can't possibly be the right religion, I really don't see where you're making this assumptions about my opinion from, by all means Christianity could be true but Christianity is no more likely to be true in my book then Islam, Confucianism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism or any other religious belief for which I have been given zero credible evidence.

    If you can demonstrate your religion to be true or at the very least that some deity exists, I'm listening. I don't see why you're dancing around this request.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  9. #39
    Maddoc's Avatar
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    Well, If you think physocologically (rofl, not bringing that up again, it's just my job), Paroxysm's dislike for you (Empire) is completely justified. He (as an atheist) believes in things with evidence, yet people (and I've been one of them) have slandered him because he can't grasp something. But it's not that he can't grasp the concept, it's that you people (me included) have dissed him and said "yo man god exists. believe that bitch" We have insulted him and not given his question reasonable thought because we may have different Beliefs. But now is the point where he becomes confusing.

    He seems to believe that if god is proven to exist, it must exist, which is completely reasonable. But the proof he requires is physical evidence. Let's bring into perspective, an atom. You can't feel it, but you know it's there. This is what religious people believe. It also seems to be what Paroxysm believes, just in a different way: He can't feel a single atom by itself, but he knows it's there.
    Paroxysm, you say you are open-minded, but to be open-minded is to be able to accept things without proof and be able to understand certain things to a certain extent, but with certain parameters. You have certein parameters that need to be filled that have to do with a god. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, because I do, a god needs to be proven to exist, but I don't believe that the evidence needs to be physical. Now, let's think of what was previously stated by Empire.

    Empire, your attacking with Paroxysm with slanders and insults. You might not be aware of it, but you are sub-coniously trying to convert him to somthing other than athiest. But not to a certain religion. Since I can't hear the way you people say things, I can't be certain, but it sounds like you both have had bad experiences with the type of person your opposite of.

    Let us suppose something in what I will say now: God Exists. If he did, then he created man, and since man created sience, science is godly.

    In this form, let's suppose god doesn't exist. Since he didn't, and man was created by chemicals that have to do with science, god has been proven by science, since man believes god is real, and man was made by science.

    Both of the above statements could be true, it's your point of view you take.

    Paroxysm, my guess, is that you believe in science to the point that only if you see a god of some sort, will you believe in it. It may have something to do with a past part of your life, but idk, since I can't hear you. You may say that you will believe god if given suffiecient evidence, but, people have given sufficient evidence to you (in their minds). I believe they have given you enough evidence, but I just don't think god exists, since all those crappy religions say that god will help his belivers, yet he lets innocent people die.

    /rant win

    And I'm a therapist/phsycologist, so I know what I be talkin about.
    Last edited by Maddoc; 05-14-2010 at 07:54 PM.

  10. #40
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    He seems to believe that if god is proven to exist, it must exist, which is completely reasonable.
    I'm not following you here, can you please elaborate. If something is proven, then it is a truth. There is nothing that is proven true but is false, because the only way something can appear proven but be false is if the proof for the apparent truth is false, thus not making it proof and in-turn not making it proven. If something is proven true then it excludes the possibility that it is false by definition. Unless you intend to go into metaphysics I don't see what your point here is.

    But the proof he requires is physical evidence.
    Hell I'll settle for purely logical argument, if evidence is asking too much.
    Let's bring into perspective, an atom. You can't feel it, but you know it's there.
    Yes but there are demonstrable ways to prove atoms exist via observations made from predictions of the modern atomic theory. There are even methods by which we can observe and move individual atoms.
    YouTube - IBM Celebrates 20th Anniversary of Moving Atoms
    Atoms don't require faith.

    This is what religious people believe. It also seems to be what Paroxysm believes, just in a different way: He can't feel a single atom by itself, but he knows it's there.
    Paroxysm, you say you are open-minded, but to be open-minded is to be able to accept things without proof
    Woah woah woah woah there buddy, slow down. Being open-minded does not being accepting claims without evidence, being open minded is being open to evidence for claims. It's not close-mined to not accept claims for which there is no evidence, it is however close-minded to expect people to accept your claims without presenting evidence or rational argument.

    If you could demonstrate that accepting claims without evidence makes you more likely to accept truths then accepting claims on the basis of evidence then I'm all ears.


    and be able to understand certain things to a certain extent, but with certain parameters. You have certein parameters that need to be filled that have to do with a god. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, because I do, a god needs to be proven to exist, but I don't believe that the evidence needs to be physical. Now, let's think of what was previously stated by Empire.

    Let us suppose something in what I will say now: God Exists. If he did, then he created man, and since man created sience, science is godly.

    Now come on, that simply doesn't follow, God's existence doesn't necessitate that it effects the natural world, that's why deists exist, deism being the belief in a universe creating god but one that doesn't meddle in the workings of the universe afterwards.

    In this form, let's suppose god doesn't exist. Since he didn't, and man was created by chemicals that have to do with science, god has been proven by science, since man believes god is real, and man was made by science.
    I'm sorry but WTF? Man wasn't created by science, man came about by natural means, those natural means can be investigated BY science. Once again I feel I need to clarify sciences purpose, science doesn't exist to dictate reality, science exists to investigate reality.

    Both of the above statements could be true, it's your point of view you take.

    Paroxysm, my guess, is that you believe in science to the point that only if you see a god of some sort, will you believe in it.

    I don't "believe" in science, through the 500 years that the modern scientific method has existed it has proven to be the most reliable way to investigate and come to meaningful conclusions about the nature of the universe. Trying to argue that a "belief" in science is comparable to that of religious belief is arguing a falsehood.

    It may have something to do with a past part of your life, but idk, since I can't hear you.

    No traumatic experiences that "shook my faith", sorry.

    You may say that you will believe god if given suffiecient evidence, but, people have given sufficient evidence to you (in their minds). I believe they have given you enough evidence, but I just don't think god exists, since all those crappy religions say that god will help his belivers, yet he lets innocent people die.
    Really? What evidence?
    Problem of evil only applies to the four-omni' gods, and there are rebuttals by other religious faiths, usually lacking.



    /rant win

    And I'm a therapist/phsycologist, so I know what I be talkin about.

    Considering that you couldn't spell psychologist right I'm skeptical of your claim. Can you please demonstrate that you're an actual psychologist.
    10 characters
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  11. #41
    Maddoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    10 characters
    Just a mistype dude. And I'm not about to get into another arguement with you, k? And by past experiences.... Past experiences don't need to be traumatic or shake your life's foundations to make an impact. Anyways, I never said you were closed-minded, I'm simply saying that to say your open-minded is a bit too much, but to say your close-minded isn't right either. Your open-minded, but to a certain point. Close-minded people wold jst say, "No, fuck you boy", but you actually thought about my statement and want some sort of evidence to support my clams, which is completely reasonable, and states that your not close-minded. Idk where some people say your close-minded, but I agree with you; there has to be proof or sufficient evidence to ssupport a claim. But, in psychology's case, proof is the hardest thing to do, because you aren't able to look at the person's brain; you must look at how they react, respond, understand and what they say about your question.

    As for evidence to my claim being a therapist/psychologist, it's very hard to send you evidence about someone who studies people's emotional minds and thoughts. Sure, I can see if their reactions are part of the personaltity changes a tumor will have on a person, but thats more towards a more experieinced psychilogist who's also taken neuropsychology..

  12. #42
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    I'm a therapist/phsycologist, so I know what I be talkin about.
    Maddoc you're making a factual claim here, and I'd like to know whether you're an actual psychologist. You can demonstrate this being telling me where you studied psychology, where you got your PhD or PsyD? Where you do work? Have you done any notable peer-review work? If so can you link it to me?

    Or

    Are you just some dude on the internet who likes to think that superficially psychoanalyzing people makes you a psychologist? Because let me assure you that it doesn't.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  13. #43
    Maddoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Maddoc you're making a factual claim here, and I'd like to know whether you're an actual psychologist. You can demonstrate this being telling me where you studied psychology, where you got your PhD or PsyD? Where you do work? Have you done any notable peer-review work? If so can you link it to me?

    Or

    Are you just some dude on the internet who likes to think that superficially psychoanalyzing people makes you a psychologist? Because let me assure you that it doesn't.
    I know it doesn't, and I hate people that think that. I got my PhD at Brock University in Canada. I am currently working at The Ottawa Hospital and Toronto Rehab, which right now is looking for another psychologist because my colleague was affected by a case and went, well, basically nuts. I also ocassionally go to high schools to help out there.

  14. #44
    reaper's Avatar
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    Psychology and Mythology in the same thread huh, you're both beating your heads against brick walls

    On-topic : There is no god or gods

  15. #45
    Maddoc's Avatar
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    I know, I lol'd when I first saw what was happening to this thread involving psychology.

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