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  1. #16
    Illuminatus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JavaC View Post
    I don't follow any religion.
    I guess I accidentally used the sad face instead of the 'tired of this subject' face.




    Press The Thanks Button If I Helped =D
    Quote Originally Posted by mamakiller13 View Post

    and im aint fag,
    FORMERLY KNOWN AS SloaMoeDaea

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    I'm playing demigod with Arun and Dave. God can wait.
    That game is pretty fun. Arun and Dave are HoN fans so i can see that.

    (although when it first came out it was broken for like 2 months on the awards and shit.)


  3. #18
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    1. Infinite temporal series or infinite time is logically consistent as explained in Arnold Guminski's article on "The Kalam Cosmological Argument Yet Again: The Question of the Metaphysical Possibility of an Infinite Temporal Series (2003)"
    The Kalam Cosmological Argument Yet Again: The Question of the Metaphysical Possibility of an Infinite Temporal Series

    The entirety of venomfangx's video is an extension of the Kalam cosmological argument.

    What's always bothered me about the kalam is that it states everything that begins has a cause and makes a completely arbitrary definition of God as an uncaused being and runs with it. The Kalam falls victim to the special pleading fallacy when it states everything needs a cause but God. Whether one accepts that God doesn't need a cause or the universe doesn't need a cause, either way it violates the rule that everything must have a cause.

    It's like this:

    1)
    a. The universe doesn't have a cause.

    or

    2)
    a. God doesn't have a cause.
    b. God created the universe.

    The second one adds unnecessary assumptions and violates Occams Razor.
    Making the first option more likely.

    It also falls victim to the equivocation fallacy when it states the universe was created. When I create a painting I use preexisting material, when god "created" the universe there were no preexisting material to create with.
    So saying every created thing has a cause and trying to apply that to the universe it becomes incoherent.

    venomfangx's video points out another problem very clearly, when he begins to coalesce his properties into a god he doesn't demonstrate a supernatural cause nor does he invalidate a natural one. He just says something along the lines of "well it happened outside of time and we say god is outside of time, therefore god did it". It would be like me saying, "My hands wet, I know my hands get wet when I'm in the shower. Therefore I'm in the shower."

    There's a bit of longer refutation but I'd rather avoid it unless absolutely necessary.


    In conclusion, even when all the terms of the argument are agreed upon, the kalam doesn't actual demonstrate a proof of a God. It's like writing countless proofs that a perfect circle has to be 360 degrees but that doesn't do anything do demonstrate a perfect circle exists.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SloaMoeDaea View Post
    I'm afraid I am attracted to threads on religion, because I like to mock them.
    But it does get tiresome when you argue about the existence of any higher deity in every thread of the debate fort.
    I understand what you mean.

    It could literally go on forever. Simply because no one really knows.


    I like to read them, and expand on what I know already by reading Parox's posts, but I don't know enough myself to post in them outside of posts like this.

  5. #20
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    That's not to mention the false dichotomy that venomfangx brings up by saying "either the universe came from nothing or god made it".
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    That's not to mention the false dichotomy that venomfangx brings up by saying "either the universe came from nothing or god made it".
    Lolwut, who's venomfangx?


  7. #22
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Venomfangx is the guy whose talking in the first video. He was a youtube creationist until he quit and deleted all his videos after people learned he was keeping all the donation money for himself instead of investing in charities like his promised.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    ". It would be like me saying, "My hands wet, I know my hands get wet when I'm in the shower. Therefore I'm in the shower.".
    Yeah but, that is something our minds is capable thinking of,

    God did say in the Qur'an (pretend this was said by a wise man)

    "You only got a little knowledge" and by "you" he means us, the ppl

    scientist said that statement means that our mind thinking is limit,

    and just thinking about who created God or where did God comes from,

    that will never get an answer for it, because that is beyond our thinking limit.

    btw, u keep saying "Kalam", Kalam means "talk" or "talking"in arabic,

    or did u mean something else?

  9. #24
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo-dash View Post
    Yeah but, that is something our minds is capable thinking of,

    God did say in the Qur'an (pretend this was said by a wise man)

    "You only got a little knowledge" and by "you" he means us, the ppl

    scientist said that statement means that our mind thinking is limit,

    and just thinking about who created God or where did God comes from,

    that will never get an answer for it, because that is beyond our thinking limit.

    btw, u keep saying "Kalam", Kalam means "talk" or "talking"in arabic,

    or did u mean something else?

    The Kalam cosmological argument is a popular argument theists try to use to prove the existence of god. Venomfangx, the person in the first video, used a variant of the Kalam argument so I felt addressing the Kalam directly would be more effective.

    Saying "God is beyond our ability to understand" is useless and proves nothing. It's nothing more than a tool for the intellectually lazy to avoid having to justify their beliefs.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  10. #25
    -Lame's Avatar
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    I didn't watched Venomfangx to be honest so idk what he is talking about,

    So after the big bang, plants, starts, blackhole were created,

    why wouldn't be there is a life on any other planet expect that their bodies can handle the change of the temperature? why us, why only the Earth has a life?

    just think about it, and what is ur explanation how did human were existed in the first place?

    was it by Coincidence or something else.

    i know my questions are very Primitive, but that is really something that I would like to know.

  11. #26
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo-dash View Post
    I didn't watched Venomfangx to be honest so idk what he is talking about,

    So after the big bang, plants, starts, blackhole were created,

    why wouldn't be there is a life on any other planet expect that their bodies can handle the change of the temperature? why us, why only the Earth has a life?

    just think about it, and what is ur explanation how did human were existed in the first place?

    was it by Coincidence or something else.

    i know my questions are very Primitive, but that is really something that I would like to know.
    Ok first of all do me a small favor and don't post videos or argument you haven't watched yourself and agree with. Kind of a waste of my time to argue if you don't give a shit.

    To address your weak anthropic principle question. Biological life that we are familiar with is very susceptible to temperature, a lot of planets are either too cold or too hot for biological life. Mars and Europa could have life or had life but that's yet unknown. The planet earth is also not incredibly welcoming of life, most of the planet is either too hot or too cold for human beings.
    We don't know that the planet earth is the only one with life, we have only just begun to investigate planet and moons in our solar system, there very well could be life all over the universe.

    Humans are here because of our ancestors and their ancestors back to abiogenesis.
    It's not a coincidence, it's natural selection.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Ok first of all do me a small favor and don't post videos or argument you haven't watched yourself and agree with. Kind of a waste of my time to argue if you don't give a shit.

    To address your weak anthropic principle question. Biological life that we are familiar with is very susceptible to temperature, a lot of planets are either too cold or too hot for biological life. Mars and Europa could have life or had life but that's yet unknown. The planet earth is also not incredibly welcoming of life, most of the planet is either too hot or too cold for human beings.
    We don't know that the planet earth is the only one with life, we have only just begun to investigate planet and moons in our solar system, there very well could be life all over the universe.

    Humans are here because of our ancestors and their ancestors back to abiogenesis.
    It's not a coincidence, it's natural selection.

    u sounds starting to get mad, calm down, it just an argument,



    Mars and Europa could have life or had life
    "could" that word just proved my point witch is human mind thinking is limit,

    If we're very clever and smart, right now we could be living on mars or we could discovered a very far planets that we didn't know shit about,

    plus, ur saying

    Biological life that we are familiar with is very susceptible to temperature
    witch is true, but my point is why wouldn't be there a trees or stuff like that capable of growing and living at lets just say, -400 degrees?

    anyway, i had to google the word "abiogenesis" witch means "Automatically Generated" I mean, correct me if i'm wrong, but that kind of let me lol'd

    blood, brain, bones, heart, lunghs, that was abiogenesis?

    i'm sorry but that is sounds illogical.

  13. #28
    Illuminatus's Avatar
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    wtf is europa




    Press The Thanks Button If I Helped =D
    Quote Originally Posted by mamakiller13 View Post

    and im aint fag,
    FORMERLY KNOWN AS SloaMoeDaea

  14. #29
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo-dash View Post
    u sounds starting to get mad, calm down, it just an argument,





    "could" that word just proved my point witch is human mind thinking is limit,

    If we're very clever and smart, right now we could be living on mars or we could discovered a very far planets that we didn't know shit about,

    plus, ur saying



    witch is true, but my point is why wouldn't be there a trees or stuff like that capable of growing and living at lets just say, -400 degrees?

    anyway, i had to google the word "abiogenesis" witch means "Automatically Generated" I mean, correct me if i'm wrong, but that kind of let me lol'd

    blood, brain, bones, heart, lunghs, that was abiogenesis?

    i'm sorry but that is sounds illogical.
    First I'm not mad, just frustrated that people want to waste my time.
    I don't see your point about the human minds limitations... no one is arguing that we're limited what is your point?

    We don't have life at -400 degrees celcius because there is no -400 c, and saying -400 K just points out the complete ignorance of your question.
    At very low temperatures chemical reactions can't occur often enough to support life.

    "anyway, i had to google the word "abiogenesis" witch means "Automatically Generated" I mean, correct me if i'm wrong, but that kind of let me lol'd

    blood, brain, bones, heart, lunghs, that was abiogenesis?

    i'm sorry but that is sounds illogical."

    Dude...
    Are you a fucking retard? I've been trying to be civil but if you can't even read a wikipedia article properly then this discussion won't go anywhere.
    You read the wiki article on "Spontaneous generation", where it clearly said:
    "Spontaneous generation or Equivocal generation is an obsolete theory regarding the origin of life from inanimate matter"

    .....
    Before posting something be sure to know what the fuck your talking about.
    In case you're wondering now, I'm mad. Not only can't you read but obviously don't even care enough about this conversation to know whether what you're saying is even accurate.

    Here since you have difficulty using google properly:
    Abiogenesis

    Europa is one of Jupiters moon.
    Last edited by Paroxysm; 06-26-2010 at 01:46 PM.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  15. #30
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    man, if u feel that i've wasted a lot of ur time already please feel free to leave or just ignore me,

    In my previous posts i did said 'say simplified words as possibly as u could" witch means help me out here man, Im not a fucking native speaker that I understand ever sentence you write, I don't intensionally getting on nerve or something like that,

    I'm really interested how u "atheist" thinks of cretin stuff,

    yeah there is nothing such as 400 degrees out there but u got my point,

    probably if i google that they will give me a shit load of text that I don't understand most of it, which btw, I'm not going to read that shit on weki that you've posts, probably i am not going to understand any shit from that.
    Last edited by -Lame; 06-26-2010 at 02:03 PM.

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