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    Nygfan's Avatar
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    Why there is a God.

    I believe there is a God, and I don't believe through faith only but through logic and evidences and I'd like to share them with you guys. This is going to be quite lengthy so I'd appreciate if y'all read all of it and give me your feedback. Btw whenever I write pbuh it means peace be upon him.

    Firstly I'd like to say I'm Muslim. And I'd like to show you guys some evidences why there is a God.

    I'd like to show you a verse in the Quran, "Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain." Quran 52:35-36 Think about that. How do you think the universe came into existence? Science has discovered that the universe is expanding. If you reverse the expansion the universe would shrink down to nothing. Scientist don't know what was before the Big Bang, but they agree that the universe is not eternal and it had a beginning. There's three possibilities for the beginning of the universe.

    A) Did it come from nothing? From nothing, nothing comes. For example I can't make a book appear in my hands out of nowhere. Or a yellow rhino is not going to pop out from nothing into your bedroom. So the universe could not have came from nothing.

    B) Did it create itself? This is even more irrational. It would need to be in existence and not be in existence at the same time. That's like saying a mother gave birth to herself.

    C) Did it have a creator? This is the most logical and rational conclusion.

    So, if there is a creator, who created the creator? If you asked yourself this question you're thinking about infinite regress. Let's say you're in the army and you're a sniper. So you get your weapon and you aim at someone and your ready to take the shot. But before take the shot you must get permission from your commander. So you call him up and say "Can I take the shot" then your commander says "Let me ask my commander" and his commander says "Let me ask my commander" let's say there is an infinite amount of commanders. Will you ever take the shot? No. Your command will be lost in the infinite past. So if there's a creator and a creator of that creator and a creator of that creator and that goes on for infinity this universe would have never came into existence.

    "Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One, Allah the eternal refuge. He neither begets nor is born. Nor is to him any equivalent"
    This is Surah 112 in the Quran.

    Another evidence of a creator is the design and fine tuning of the universe. We both can agree that this universe is really complex. Doesn't the complexity and fine tuning of the universe suggest that there is an intelligent designer?

    Think about it like this, a watch, what is its purpose? To check the time, set alarms, etc. What's more complicated your finger tip or a watch? Isn't it logical to say that we have a purpose and a creator due to our complexity? If you were in a desert, and you saw a watch on the floor, would you think that someone dropped it there? Or would you think that over time through natural events etc, the watched was created through nature? I believe it is more logical to think that someone dropped it there because a watch is somewhat a complex object and it shows intelligence. And the intelligence comes from the intelligent designer.

    What if the universe came by chance? Professor Roger Penrose, professor of mathematics, at Oxford University (who's won a Wolf Price with Stephen Hawking!!) has calculated that the chances of a Low-Entropy Universe beginning by chance is "10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123 to one!!!!!!" That is a huge number. You have a higher chance of gathering a bunch of random paints colors splashing it on a board and producing the Mona Lisa. Let's be real that'll never happen.

    Okay so I've said a lot but please bear with me because I haven't yet got into the main evidences which there is a God. One of the main evidences that there is a God is the prophets of God. Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David, Jesus, Muhammed, and many many more (peace be upon them all). I'd like to use Muhammed (pbuh) as an example why there is a God. Now when the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) came he claimed to be a prophet, that means there's one of three things about his claim, he's a liar, or he's deluded, or he's truthful?


    If we look at his biography we can deduce which one he is. Why do people lie? Usually for some kind of worldly gain. Like money, power, women, fame, respect, etc. The prophet came and brought a message. And this message was going to completely flip the government at his time. So everyone in power were going to lose their power. The prophet was taking away the power from the people and giving back to God. The people told Muhammed (pbuh) we'll make you our king just don't mess with our religion, but Muhammed (pbuh) declined. They offered him the most beautiful women for marriage, but he declined. They told him they'll make him the richest man among them, but he declined. They kept coming to him offering all sorts of things but every time he declined and this was at a time where he had nothing. There are authentic documented narrations which state that Muhammed (pbuh) and his companions were so poor that they would scurrage to look for bits of leafs on the floor to eat. And at this time he's being offered all sorts of riches and power but he's constantly declining. Is this the psychological profile of a liar?

    There's still two options left, maybe he was deluded, he was sincere but he was wrong. If I make some claims of prophecy and I was wrong then that shows I am deluded or a liar. But what if I make a claim to be a prophet and my prophecies are true? Some of the tallest buildings in the world are in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia and around that area right. 1436 years ago the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said that a time would come where the Arab barefoot Bedouins will compete with each other to build in the construction of tall buildings. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) also said that a time would where there would be an increase of sexual promiscuity, and new diseases that people had not herd of before spreading amongst them as a consequence of that. This is clear, with the arrival of AIDS, and other previously unheard of viruses. There are many many many more prophecies.

    So the only option left is he's truthful. Now what I really want to get into is miracles. What is a miracle? A miracle can be defined as a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.I want to give you an example, like how Moses split the red sea, Moses turned his staff into a snake, Jesus brought the death back to life (peace be upon them both) and by the way all these miracles are done with the will of Allah (God). None of these men had the power to do any of these miracle they did it with the power of Allah (God) Let's discuss Muhammed's (pbuh) miracle. The Quran. The Holy book of Islam the word of Allah (God). I'd like to prove to you why this book is a miracle.

    Firstly I'd like you to know that the Quran hasn't been changed by man, it's exactly the same as it was when first brought 1400 years ago. Scholars of all faiths and no faiths unanimously agree that the Quran is exactly the same as when it was revealed.

    I tried to put up some links which talk about the oldest manuscript of the Quran but it's not letting me, so if you want proof just search up on google, Old quran in england or something like that.

    This is the oldest manuscript of the Quran. It's about 1370 years old. And it is 95% accurate with today's Quran. The 5% inaccuracy is not because the words are different, it is because not all of the old manuscript is readable and some parts are damaged.

    Also the Quran is impossible to change. You know your times table by heart right? 1x1, 2x2, 3x3, etc. Let's say someone comes up to you and says "7x7 is 928." You'll correct him and tell him "No 7x7 is 49" Millions and millions of people memorized the Quran. When we go to the mosque and pray the imam (the leader of the prayer) if he makes a mistake in his recitation what will we do? We will correct him. With this system the Quran can never be corrupted by man.

    Hopefully we both can agree that the Quran hasn't been altered. Let's get into the miracles. 1400 years ago Allah challenged all of mankind. He said "And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful." Surah 2:23. He's basically saying if you think man wrote this come up with something like it. Simple right? It's been 1400 years and yet no one has been able to challenge the Quran by the way the smallest chapter (surah) in the Quran is only 10 words. Let me tell you why it hasn't been done and it will never be done. What makes speech good? Or powerful? The content and the style of the speech. When you want to make a good speech you fill it with good content and you try to style it. The Quran never compromises style or content. One of the two will always have to be compromised to some extent. For example in poetry you focus on the style. The style of your work is the key to it being successful. So sometimes when you're rapping or making a poem you may have to take some words out which will compromise the content because it doesn't fit with the style. Whatever point you're trying to bring across may be compromised due to your literacy structure. If you're delivering a speech, you'd compromise the style a bit and focus on the content. The Quran doesn't compromise in terms of style and content. Let's say you write a poem. And when you write a poem you're going to try to put as much rhetorical devices as possible like similes, metaphors, repetition, etc. Let's take Eminem for example. I think we can agree that he has great skill and knowledge of the English language. If you look at one of his greatest songs "Lose Yourself" and if you look for 10 words in that song with the most rhetorical devices you'll find about 3-4. That is pretty impressive for only 10 words. How many rhetorical devices do you think you can fit into 10 words? How many rhetorical devices do you think are the shortest surah (chapter) in the Quran which is only 10 words? 40. There are 40 rhetorical devices in only 10 words. This is the linguistic miracle of the Quran. Imagine how many rhetorical devices are in the whole book of 112 chapters 6236 verses.

    There are many more miracles in the Quran and I'll share with you some more. In 1929 Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding and it is not eternal. But Muslims already knew this 1400 years ago. "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander" Quran 51:47

    Embryology is described in the Quran in detail. Please watch this video I promise it's noting weird it just goes through the description of the human embryo in the Quran. The video will be able to explain it better than I can. It isn't long it's about maybe 4 minutes I believe. Idk I can't put up links so please go on youtube the video is called EMBRYO = LEECH | AMAZING QURAN MIRACLE | #MINDBLOW

    Muhammed (pbuh) is also prophesied in the Bible. John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." Lots of people say that the comforter is the holy spirit but the holy spirit was already there when it came in the form of a dove. Luke 3:22 "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." Jesus (pbuh) says "if I got not away, the comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." It can't be the holy spirit because why would Jesus need to leave to send him when he's already there. Therefore it must be someone else. After Jesus (pbuh) left Muhammed (pbuh) came about 500 years later. And when Muhammed (pbuh) came he confirmed Jesus (pbuh) message and gave glad tidings to him. And Muslims don't believe Jesus (pbuh) to be God, we believe him to be just a prophet and messenger of God and he is among one of the 5 greatest prophets and messengers of God.

    There is another prophecy in the bible where God says to Moses (pbuh) in Deuteronomy 18:18. " I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Some people say this is Jesus (pbuh) but it can't be. God says "among their brethren". So it's not Moses' brethren it is "their brethren" Jesus is among Moses brethren, both of them were Israelite. Abraham had two kids, Ishmael and Issac. The Arabs come from Ishmael's descendants and the Israelites come from Issac's descendants. Muhammed (pbuh) is from Ishmaels' descendants and Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) are among Issac's descendants. God also says "like unto thee". So this prophet will be like Moses (pbuh). Moses and Muhammed (peace be upon them both) both were born normally, both were a husband, both were a father, both spoke with God, both were a statesman, bother were warriors, both won battles miraculously, both died naturally. Jesus (pbuh) didn't marry, didn't have children, didn't die naturally, wasn't a warrior and he didn't win battle miraculously. I'm not trying to say Jesus isn't as good as Muhammed and Moses, Jesus did other amazing things.

    There is one more prophecy that I want to tell you. Isaiah 29:12 "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned." If you read the biography of Muhammed (pbuh) you'll see how the Quran was revealed to him. Muhammed (pbuh) went to a cave and the Angel Gabriel came to him and brought the revelation and told him to "read" but Muhammed (pbuh) is illiterate so he told the Angel "I'm illiterate" or " I am not learned" I'm not 100% sure of the wording.

    I'd like to say one more thing. Lots of people think that Islam and the Quran is all about Muhammed (pbuh). Jesus (pbuh) is mentioned in the Quran 5x more than Muhammed (pbuh) by name. And Moses (pbuh) is mentioned in the Quran 27x more than Muhammed (pbuh) by name. If Muhammed (pbuh) created this religion, wouldn't he promote himself? Wouldn't he be the most mentioned person in the book? Why would he mention these two other men more than him. The Quran came to confirm what Moses, Jesus, Noah, Abraham and all the other prophets taught (peace be upon them all).

    I'd also like to mention why Jesus (pbuh) can't be God. God is all-powerful, and all-knowing right? Jesus said in Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only Jesus (pbuh) also prayed, if he was God, why would he pray to himself. Matthew 26:39 "And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

    Jesus (pbuh) also didn't die for our sins. He was not sent for all of mankind but only for the lost people of Israel, Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" So how can he die for all of us if he was sent for only one nation. Muslims believe that Jesus (pbuh) didn't even die. He was raised up to the heavens before his Crucifixion and one of his disciples volunteered to take his place. Jesus (pbuh) couldn't have been crucified. He is one of the prophets of all-mighty God, and crucifixion was the ultimate curse of their time. This is why the Jews wanted to crucify him, because if they could that would prove that he isn't a prophet. This is one of the reasons why he as raised up into the heavens.

    I'd also like to say that ISIS and any other terrorist group which claim to be Muslim don't represent Islam. These "Islamic" terrorist don't even make up .001% of the whole muslim population. God says in the Quran "...Whosoever kill one innocent person, it shall be as if you killed all of humanity, and whosoever save the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." Quran 5:32. These terrorist have nothing to do with Islam and they will be punished for their crimes.

    So thank you for reading this. I'd love to get your feedback. I want to share another video on youtube, it is called The Meaning of Life Muslim Spoken Word. I'd really appreciate it if y'all watch it it's only 7 mins. If you want a free Quran in English you can search up quranproject on google. I promise it is legit. I think it only delivers to US and UK I'm not too sure.

  2. #2
    OncePhoenix's Avatar
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    I'm christian and the first paragraph is exactly my thoughts.
    #thesasafiddaysareoverChristiamsandMuslimsareFrien ds

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    Hunter Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    They offered him the most beautiful women for marriage, but he declined.
    Then once he did gain fame and fortune he married a nine year old and abused his power, relentlessly. Not only did he start attacking offensively but he had several wives, including the nine year old Aisha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Is this the psychological profile of a liar?
    This can't be correlated with being offered riches, that's like saying because you offered me a lolipop and I declined that means I'm not a liar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    said that a time would come where the Arab barefoot Bedouins will compete with each other to build in the construction of tall buildings.
    No shit, that's because it's pretty common knowledge that eventually we'll get to a technological point in the future where we can "build tall buildings." Same way how right now I know eventually there will 'come a time when we have hovercars.' The points you make are silly and don't prove God at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Firstly I'd like you to know that the Quran hasn't been changed by man, it's exactly the same as it was when first brought 1400 years ago. Scholars of all faiths and no faiths unanimously agree that the Quran is exactly the same as when it was revealed.
    Wow, because this proves God so much. A fucking book written by a man that had "visions".
    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    like how Moses split the red sea, Moses turned his staff into a snake, Jesus brought the death back to life (peace be upon them both) and by the way all these miracles are done with the will of Allah (God).
    And yet, to date, there is no proof of these incidents other than what is inscribed on a piece of paper. Yet again, a claim with no evidence, doesn't prove God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    He said "And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful." Surah 2:23. He's basically saying if you think man wrote this come up with something like it. Simple right? It's been 1400 years and yet no one has been able to challenge the Quran
    A. Nobody is 'challenging' the Quran.
    B. Other religions have sprouted in 1400 years, and they're just as valid as Islam because neither of them provide any form of proof towards their claim. Sorry, but citing a book that supports your religion is not actual evidence.

    In essence, your whole fucking argument consists of you preaching out of your religion's book and what Muhammad 'did', even though there's no evidence supplied by you to say it actually happened other than your own religion's book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Isn't it logical to say that we have a purpose and a creator due to our complexity?
    AND IT'S ALSO COMPLETELY LOGICAL TO ASSUME THAT BY THIS ARGUMENT, BECAUSE WE ARE TOO COMPLEX TO BE EVOLVED, YOUR CREATOR MUST BE CREATED AS WELL, THEN CREATING A LOOP OF INFINITE GODS BECAUSE THEY ARE TOO COMPLEX TO EXIST WITHOUT A CREATOR.

    https:/rlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof
    This might help.
    Last edited by Hunter Jr.; 12-22-2015 at 06:14 PM.

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  5. #4
    Logic's Avatar
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    i think you just answered your own question m8
    Schuba is my main nigga.

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    Nygfan's Avatar
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    Firstly, I'd like to say chill out dude. And I will address everything you said.

    About Aisha, if you go around the world you'll see that the age for marriage is different. For example in the US in New Hampshire females can marry at 13, 14 in Texas, 15 in Missouri. In different places and at different times people mature at different rates. You can't compare the time and place of Prophet Muhammed 5570-633 AD to the time and place of today. Today we got air conditioning, electric heaters, etc, you can't compare this to the time of Muhammed (pbuh) when they were living in the desert. Muhammed (pbuh) has been criticized ever since the time of his prophet hood. It wasn't until 1905 that this "issue" about his marriage came up. Why is that? It is because it was the norm. They have developed faster, matured faster, and weren't like the women of today. And since you're an atheist you are in no position to objectively determine what is the morally acceptable age of marriage in the 6th century. Also the French philosophy Montesquieu stated in the spirit of laws which was used in developing the American constitution, that in hot climates women are marriageable at 8, 9, or 10 years old.(book 16 page 264-5). And by the age of 20 a women would be considered to be old. So please if you're going to comment on Muhammed's (pbuh) marital relations learn your history. And lol where is your evidence of him abusing his wives??? And all of his wives were either widows, or divorcees besides one.

    Have you not read that whole paragraph? Lol it's not like being offered a lollipop and declining and because of that you're not a liar. He was offered all these things because of nothing. They people didn't want Islam to spread. So they offered him riches, power, women, etc, so he'll stop spreading the message. And he was being offered this when he was at his extreme of poverty. Yet he still declined. Is that the psychological profile of a liar. If you're suffering from a lie, and on top of that your being offered all sorts of things to stop your lie wouldn't you stop? Would the normal liar stop? So does Muhammad (pbuh) fit the psychological profile of a liar? No he does not.

    I'll agree with you that this prophecy is not clear evidence. But there are many many more. If you get rid of your arrogance and humble yourself just a bit maybe you'll look into the other prophecies on your own time.

    Lol dude I'm questioning whether you actually read it all. I feel like you just picked out a couple lines and commented about them I didn't that that "Firstly I'd like you to know that the Quran hasn't been changed by man, it's exactly the same as it was when first brought 1400 years ago. Scholars of all faiths and no faiths unanimously agree that the Quran is exactly the same as when it was revealed." this was an evidence of God. I was just stating it before I got into the miracles so you'll know that the Quran hasn't been changed. C'mon dude actually read what I wrote. And Also I tried to put up some links to some old manuscripts found in England but it wouldn't let me post it with links. I doubt you actually searched up what I recommended due to the amount of arrogance you've shown so far.

    Yet again I feel like you haven't read everything I said. "like how Moses split the red sea, Moses turned his staff into a snake, Jesus brought the death back to life (peace be upon them both) and by the way all these miracles are done with the will of Allah (God)." Lol I never said this proves God's existence it was just an example to get you to understand what a miracle is so I can prove why the Quran is a miracle.

    Many people have tried to challenge the Quran and all have failed. And again I feel like you really didn't read everything I wrote. There are scientific miracles of the Quran which I mentioned which you didn't comment on. I bet through your arrogance you didn't even watch the videos I recommended which explain the miracles. And dude the videos aren't even long they're like 4 mins.

    You're my brother in humanity. I really hope the best of you. I hope God softens your heart and you rid of your arrogance and become more humble. You clearly have something against Islam and probably religion all together. Whatever happened to you I'm sorry. At the end of the day if your right, when we die there's nothing. And whatever we did is this life doesn't matter because we'll be nothing. YOLO right? If Islam makes me happy and I enjoy my life because of it then that's alright. I'll have a good life and then they'll be nothing and everything I did, and everything I believed in wouldn't matter. But if right you'll be screwed and before you die and you see the angel of death about to collect your soul you'll regret everything you did in this life but it'll be too late. Think about that. You owe it to yourself to look at religion without any prejudice and from authentic sources. And the end of the day I can't do anything. Allah guides who he wills. If you are sincere and want guidance Allah will guide you. So again I recommend that you try to be less arrogant, humble yourself, and sincerely ask Allah for guidance. And if you have asked sincerely, you are getting that guidance right now. I provided a good argument. You seemed to have ignored most of it and commented on somethings and didn't even address the issue properly. Don't ignore one of your opportunities through arrogance. Who knows how many more opportunities you'll have.

    If I made any typos or anything sorry, I'm hella tired rn its 5:23 am. Yeah so sorry


    That's all I got to say, Peace.

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    Empire's Avatar
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    So I'm bored but not bored enough to respond to this line-by-line, so I'm going to respond to the major points.(and cut out all the fluff)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Firstly I'd like to say I'm Muslim. And I'd like to show you guys some evidences why there is a God.
    Great, lets get started.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    How do you think the universe came into existence? Science has discovered that the universe is expanding.There's three possibilities for the beginning of the universe.
    Well actually there are a lot more than three, but I'm sure it's just three major ones currently.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    A) Did it come from nothing? From nothing, nothing comes. For example I can't make a book appear in my hands out of nowhere. Or a yellow rhino is not going to pop out from nothing into your bedroom. So the universe could not have came from nothing.
    Surprisingly you use a very common argument from atheist, most famously said by Carl Sagan.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    B) Did it create itself? This is even more irrational. It would need to be in existence and not be in existence at the same time. That's like saying a mother gave birth to herself.
    This isn't an argument I've ever heard anyone use. It seems to be a complete strawman set up for the purpose of saying it's irrational.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    C) Did it have a creator? This is the most logical and rational conclusion.
    Except for the fact that "creator" is not defined as a sentient entity.

    The SUN has a creator, it is not a god. The MOUNTAINS have a creator, it is not a god.

    "Creator" just means a casual agent. It could be created through any number of possibilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    So, if there is a creator, who created the creator? If you asked yourself this question you're thinking about infinite regress. Let's say you're in the army and you're a sniper. So you get your weapon and you aim at someone and your ready to take the shot. But before take the shot you must get permission from your commander. So you call him up and say "Can I take the shot" then your commander says "Let me ask my commander" and his commander says "Let me ask my commander" let's say there is an infinite amount of commanders. Will you ever take the shot? No. Your command will be lost in the infinite past. So if there's a creator and a creator of that creator and a creator of that creator and that goes on for infinity this universe would have never came into existence.
    You didn't address the problem of infinite regress with your God, you just explained what it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Another evidence of a creator is the design and fine tuning of the universe. We both can agree that this universe is really complex. Doesn't the complexity and fine tuning of the universe suggest that there is an intelligent designer?
    Complexity: a factor involved in a complicated process or situation.

    So no. Complexity has nothing to do with intelligence of design and the intelligent-design argument seems to have no standard for the amount of complexity required to be designed.

    It's simply ad-hoc reasoning > "I believe X, so this thing existing proves X".
    (Quite simply, very dishonest in approach).



    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    What if the universe came by chance? Professor Roger Penrose, professor of mathematics, at Oxford University (who's won a Wolf Price with Stephen Hawking!!) has calculated that the chances of a Low-Entropy Universe beginning by chance is "10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123 to one!!!!!!" That is a huge number. You have a higher chance of gathering a bunch of random paints colors splashing it on a board and producing the Mona Lisa. Let's be real that'll never happen.
    Well no. It WILL happen because that's what probability dictates.

    1/100000 is going to happen after 1000000 tries. Low probability determines how unlikely it is. The fact that it did happen means that it met the odds.




    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Okay so I've said a lot but please bear with me because I haven't yet got into the main evidences which there is a God. One of the main evidences that there is a God is the prophets of God. Abraham, Noah, Solomon, David, Jesus, Muhammed, and many many more (peace be upon them all). I'd like to use Muhammed (pbuh) as an example why there is a God. Now when the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) came he claimed to be a prophet, that means there's one of three things about his claim, he's a liar, or he's deluded, or he's truthful?
    Your evidence is a prophet? Out of the millions who have already claimed just yours is the correct one?

    If you want to misuse probability statistics, this would be a pretty good example of why your prophet is already false.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    There's still two options left, maybe he was deluded, he was sincere but he was wrong. If I make some claims of prophecy and I was wrong then that shows I am deluded or a liar.
    It just so happens that Muhammad made vague prophecies, so it's really an unfalsifiable claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Jesus
    Really, should I care what a book written 500 years after the death of a man says if they have no evidence to support their claim? No.

    Sorry, it's just a pointless endeavor.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Have you not read that whole paragraph? Lol it's not like being offered a lollipop and declining and because of that you're not a liar. He was offered all these things because of nothing. They people didn't want Islam to spread. So they offered him riches, power, women, etc, so he'll stop spreading the message. And he was being offered this when he was at his extreme of poverty. Yet he still declined. Is that the psychological profile of a liar. If you're suffering from a lie, and on top of that your being offered all sorts of things to stop your lie wouldn't you stop? Would the normal liar stop? So does Muhammad (pbuh) fit the psychological profile of a liar? No he does not..
    They offered him riches because people are superstitious and believe gifts would better their odds with a god. How are you to ignore the sacrificial culture that existed?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    I'll agree with you that this prophecy is not clear evidence. But there are many many more. If you get rid of your arrogance and humble yourself just a bit maybe you'll look into the other prophecies on your own time.
    Provide one that can't be interpreted to mean a dozen other things that would prove the supernatural, instead of saying "google it" like that's an argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Lol dude I'm questioning whether you actually read it all.
    Of course you are. This is the typical Muslim argument.
    >Person A points out things wrong with Quran
    >Person B just starts attacking person A saying he didn't read it.

    It's pathetically dishonest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Many people have tried to challenge the Quran and all have failed. And again I feel like you really didn't read everything I wrote. There are scientific miracles of the Quran which I mentioned which you didn't comment on. I bet through your arrogance you didn't even watch the videos I recommended which explain the miracles. And dude the videos aren't even long they're like 4 mins..
    Yet more typical muslim responses: "You didn't even believe what I said/linked!"
    "Nobody has defeated the Quran!"

    These are just outright lying. The Quran has not provided objective proof of a god. You're so UNCHALLENGED in your arguments on a normal basis that the second someone counters them you throw a hissy fit and start attacking the person's character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    About Aisha, if you go around the world you'll see that the age for marriage is different.
    http://www.mpgh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1016078


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    Voucher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nygfan View Post
    Firstly, I'd like to say chill out dude. And I will address everything you said.

    About Aisha, if you go around the world you'll see that the age for marriage is different. For example in the US in New Hampshire females can marry at 13, 14 in Texas, 15 in Missouri. In different places and at different times people mature at different rates. You can't compare the time and place of Prophet Muhammed 5570-633 AD to the time and place of today. Today we got air conditioning, electric heaters, etc, you can't compare this to the time of Muhammed (pbuh) when they were living in the desert. Muhammed (pbuh) has been criticized ever since the time of his prophet hood. It wasn't until 1905 that this "issue" about his marriage came up. Why is that? It is because it was the norm. They have developed faster, matured faster, and weren't like the women of today. And since you're an atheist you are in no position to objectively determine what is the morally acceptable age of marriage in the 6th century. Also the French philosophy Montesquieu stated in the spirit of laws which was used in developing the American constitution, that in hot climates women are marriageable at 8, 9, or 10 years old.(book 16 page 264-5). And by the age of 20 a women would be considered to be old. So please if you're going to comment on Muhammed's (pbuh) marital relations learn your history. And lol where is your evidence of him abusing his wives??? And all of his wives were either widows, or divorcees besides one.

    Have you not read that whole paragraph? Lol it's not like being offered a lollipop and declining and because of that you're not a liar. He was offered all these things because of nothing. They people didn't want Islam to spread. So they offered him riches, power, women, etc, so he'll stop spreading the message. And he was being offered this when he was at his extreme of poverty. Yet he still declined. Is that the psychological profile of a liar. If you're suffering from a lie, and on top of that your being offered all sorts of things to stop your lie wouldn't you stop? Would the normal liar stop? So does Muhammad (pbuh) fit the psychological profile of a liar? No he does not.

    I'll agree with you that this prophecy is not clear evidence. But there are many many more. If you get rid of your arrogance and humble yourself just a bit maybe you'll look into the other prophecies on your own time.

    Lol dude I'm questioning whether you actually read it all. I feel like you just picked out a couple lines and commented about them I didn't that that "Firstly I'd like you to know that the Quran hasn't been changed by man, it's exactly the same as it was when first brought 1400 years ago. Scholars of all faiths and no faiths unanimously agree that the Quran is exactly the same as when it was revealed." this was an evidence of God. I was just stating it before I got into the miracles so you'll know that the Quran hasn't been changed. C'mon dude actually read what I wrote. And Also I tried to put up some links to some old manuscripts found in England but it wouldn't let me post it with links. I doubt you actually searched up what I recommended due to the amount of arrogance you've shown so far.

    Yet again I feel like you haven't read everything I said. "like how Moses split the red sea, Moses turned his staff into a snake, Jesus brought the death back to life (peace be upon them both) and by the way all these miracles are done with the will of Allah (God)." Lol I never said this proves God's existence it was just an example to get you to understand what a miracle is so I can prove why the Quran is a miracle.

    Many people have tried to challenge the Quran and all have failed. And again I feel like you really didn't read everything I wrote. There are scientific miracles of the Quran which I mentioned which you didn't comment on. I bet through your arrogance you didn't even watch the videos I recommended which explain the miracles. And dude the videos aren't even long they're like 4 mins.

    You're my brother in humanity. I really hope the best of you. I hope God softens your heart and you rid of your arrogance and become more humble. You clearly have something against Islam and probably religion all together. Whatever happened to you I'm sorry. At the end of the day if your right, when we die there's nothing. And whatever we did is this life doesn't matter because we'll be nothing. YOLO right? If Islam makes me happy and I enjoy my life because of it then that's alright. I'll have a good life and then they'll be nothing and everything I did, and everything I believed in wouldn't matter. But if right you'll be screwed and before you die and you see the angel of death about to collect your soul you'll regret everything you did in this life but it'll be too late. Think about that. You owe it to yourself to look at religion without any prejudice and from authentic sources. And the end of the day I can't do anything. Allah guides who he wills. If you are sincere and want guidance Allah will guide you. So again I recommend that you try to be less arrogant, humble yourself, and sincerely ask Allah for guidance. And if you have asked sincerely, you are getting that guidance right now. I provided a good argument. You seemed to have ignored most of it and commented on somethings and didn't even address the issue properly. Don't ignore one of your opportunities through arrogance. Who knows how many more opportunities you'll have.

    If I made any typos or anything sorry, I'm hella tired rn its 5:23 am. Yeah so sorry


    That's all I got to say, Peace.
    lol ur following a book written by a guy who had these visions.
    Last edited by Voucher; 01-01-2016 at 12:38 PM.





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    There haven't been any concrete evidence to justify if there is or isn't a god. I think people believe in god because our world is so diverse and complex (learn biology and ur mind will explode at how complex the small things are).

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    I dont know but lately have started believing in God and all of the sudden am enjoying my life. Thanks

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