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  1. #151
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barklolbark View Post
    Argument of Ignorance won't help you win an argument. If you, once again, read the title, it says a disproof of YOUR God, not a disprove of a creator. You love to take things out of context, and when I tell you of such coincidences you get angry. Oh yeah, and a beginning before a beginning must exist with your God as well, or he can't exist within this universe, meaning he isn't omnipresent, once again disproving your God.
    Well in his case, god is the creator.

    *sigh* There isn't a point in going before the beginning is there? No. The reason for this is that the further you look back, the more time you lose to go forward.

    It really is pointless to go timeline with religion though. For most religions god is "timeless", so when you pull the "before god" bullshit, they just say that god is the starting point.
    -Really quite pointless in its entirety.
    -And also you might add that even if God did "grow" to power, if he at all possessed the ability of time, "omnipresent" is undeniable.

    Example: God grows to power, gains control of time, goes back in time. Therefore all the time he was not "omnipresent", really doesn't exist.

    :/ you have too little imagination.


  2. #152
    Doc's Avatar
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    I wish I was here when this thread started. I have a lot of reading to do tomorrow...

    But from the first couple of posts, I can tell that the OP is my kind of guy.

  3. #153
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Arguing that the Universe needed a beginning comes from a skewed perspective we have as human beings. Time and space are a result of the Big Bang, referring to time prior to the big bang is completely incoherent. And asserting some deity must of created the universe before the universe existed is doubly so incoherent. You claim that everything needs a beginning and then go to assert that to avoid infinite regress God must have always existed. If we were to take two positions either that Universe always existed in one form or another, or that God always existed before the universe but started that universe. Occam's razor would suggest that the first is far more likely.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  4. #154
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I wish I was here when this thread started. I have a lot of reading to do tomorrow...

    But from the first couple of posts, I can tell that the OP is my kind of guy.
    No offense Shane, but that sounded homo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Arguing that the Universe needed a beginning comes from a skewed perspective we have as human beings. Time and space are a result of the Big Bang, referring to time prior to the big bang is completely incoherent. And asserting some deity must of created the universe before the universe existed is doubly so incoherent. You claim that everything needs a beginning and then go to assert that to avoid infinite regress God must have always existed. If we were to take two positions either that Universe always existed in one form or another, or that God always existed before the universe but started that universe. Occam's razor would suggest that the first is far more likely.
    Big Bang is still a theory, and cannot be proved with hard evidence, likewise with a theists standpoint.
    You believe yours to be correct I believe mine to be.
    As I said to OP, stalemate. Cut and dry.

    Quote Originally Posted by barklolbark View Post
    Argument of Ignorance won't help you win an argument. If you, once again, read the title, it says a disproof of YOUR God, not a disprove of a creator. You love to take things out of context, and when I tell you of such coincidences you get angry. Oh yeah, and a beginning before a beginning must exist with your God as well, or he can't exist within this universe, meaning he isn't omnipresent, once again disproving your God.

    If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time. - Bertrand Russel
    I'm angry? Now how can you be trusted, since you're clearly spreading a lie right there.

    The creator is my God..derrrrr.
    Also..you're just talking nonsense with your BR quote,
    you're comaparing something that can be proved with HARD EVIDENCE,
    with your own argument that you can clearly NOT PROVE.

    GG.

    Already heard the this argument anyway and there are plenty of arguments out there to refute your claims.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 02-02-2011 at 11:17 AM.

  5. #155
    barklolbark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I'm angry? Now how can you be trusted, since you're clearly spreading a lie right there.

    The creator is my God..derrrrr.
    Also..you're just talking nonsense with your BR quote,
    you're comaparing something that can be proved with HARD EVIDENCE,
    with your own argument that you can clearly NOT PROVE.

    GG.

    Already heard the this argument anyway and there are plenty of arguments out there to refute your claims.
    I'm not asking for your trust. I said I am disproving your God. I do not call a creator God, you call your creator God. I'm not here to disprove the existence of a creator as a whole, in case, a being that created the universe. I am here to disprove the Judeo-Christian God, which is why it says "Your God" in the title. Because these religions makes up the vast majority of the religious world. Please begin reading behind the lines.

    My logic is proof itself. If you are going to keep arguing the logic is not proof, please gtfo. Something can't exist and contradict itself. If you can't understand that then go back to kindergarten and attempt to rebuild your mind.

  6. #156
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Lmao..and you said I was mad?
    Oh boy...

    Whatever bro. You still disproved nada.
    Hard evidence that Elohim is not the creator or u gtfo.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Lmao..and you said I was mad?
    Oh boy...

    Whatever bro. You still disproved nada.
    Hard evidence that Elohim is not the creator or u gtfo.
    Keep saying I've disproved nothing. That won't change the fact.

    Please get off my thread now, unless you are going to contribute to the debate.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    No offense Shane, but that sounded homo.
    I thought about what I posted when I went to bed. It sure did sound homo.

  9. #159
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    As once stated by Arthur Schopenhauer;

    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

    Christianity is in the first stage. Islam is in the second. Nonreligious sectors are in the third.

  10. #160
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Arguing that the Universe needed a beginning comes from a skewed perspective we have as human beings. Time and space are a result of the Big Bang, referring to time prior to the big bang is completely incoherent. And asserting some deity must of created the universe before the universe existed is doubly so incoherent. You claim that everything needs a beginning and then go to assert that to avoid infinite regress God must have always existed. If we were to take two positions either that Universe always existed in one form or another, or that God always existed before the universe but started that universe. Occam's razor would suggest that the first is far more likely.
    Hmmm, i think a being with the power of time and powers of a "God" is entirely possible though.

    I go for the "always existed" part though. God existing before would mean very little.


  11. #161
    Synchromanica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barklolbark View Post
    So my senses are now a false polychotomy? Or are you saying that God has everything predetermined and he is basically a recording that will play repeatedly? OR are you still just trying to change the basis of the argument?
    Genesis 1:1-2
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    Who's to say he didn't have an Earth before this one?

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post


    Genesis 1:1-2
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    Who's to say he didn't have an Earth before this one?
    So now we can assume that if the Bible didn't say it, it could still be possible?

    You are assuming to much, and that doesn't do anything. Change the method of me saying God is timeless is still sequential to God being timeless. My premise still stands.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by barklolbark View Post
    So now we can assume that if the Bible didn't say it, it could still be possible?
    If a tree falls down in a forest, and nobody's there to hear it, does it still make a noise? Does the world revolve around you? Do you have that undeniable proof? Because if not, I'm can keep believing what I think is right, right?

  14. #164
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Hmmm, i think a being with the power of time and powers of a "God" is entirely possible though.

    I go for the "always existed" part though. God existing before would mean very little.
    Never said it is impossible for an all powerful being to exist (given a few specific exceptions), but when it comes to deciding what we believe to be true we should let reason guide us, not default to what our parents held as true.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  15. #165
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barklolbark View Post
    Keep saying I've disproved nothing. That won't change the fact.

    Please get off my thread now, unless you are going to contribute to the debate.
    Guess it's my turn to say: Umad?

    YUP. HE MAD

    Don't sweat it fella,
    I know you worked hard at presenting your recycled theory here.

    I've already contributed plenty to this thread,
    and if that was not the case, then why lower yourself to argue with a God fearing, God loving cretin like myself?
    So far you've compared my intellect to that of a kindergartner,
    yet you continue to reply to my posts.
    Not saying too much about yourself my friend, now is it?

    Well, this is going to be my final post in this thread.
    I will respect your wishes and depart,
    since it seems it doesn't matter what I post,
    You sir, will just deem it nonsense.

    Logic can only disprove theistic proofs. Disproving theistic proofs does not mean there is no God. It only means that the proofs thus presented are insufficient. Anytime I speak of God, I speak of God in the Bible.
    In the Bible, God the father is the creator.(clearing up the earlier confusion)

    Anyway,
    Logic can only disprove theistic proofs that are presented and negating such proofs is not a refutation of all possible proofs since no one can know or present all possible proofs of God's existence. Therefore, negation of proofs does not disprove God's existence.

    The omnipotence argument:

    Human languages do not contain words that correctly describe this supernatural characteristic of God.
    This makes complete sense according to the characteristics of God in the scripture.

    We are dealing with a logical paradox here..plain and simple.

    It falls into the same category as; an irresistible force meeting an immovable object. If a force is truly irresistible, it can move any object. Conversely, if an object is truly immovable, it can resist any force.

    Arguments like these don't really disprove God being all powerful..
    They prove that Man has an incomplete or inaccurate understanding of this aspect of God's nature. They simply prove what everyone already knows - that human language is not perfect and is not capable of fully describing God's divine nature.

    Here is a perfect example of this, and we were just discussing this in my Theology class about 3 weeks ago.

    Isaiah 40:22
    "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
    And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
    Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
    And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

    The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.

    At this time, there was no word for sphere in Hebrew,
    So as you see, the scribe that wrote for Isaiah had to use what was familiar to them to best describe God's message given to the prophet.

    Interesting side fact here:
    The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens. (just sayin)

    So are you getting my point here..?
    I started with it , and I will end with it.

    The prophets did their best with the language they spoke,
    to best convey God's message.
    Whether it was perfect or not has been a subject of skepticism for many, many years. That is all.

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