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  1. #166
    barklolbark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post


    If a tree falls down in a forest, and nobody's there to hear it, does it still make a noise? Does the world revolve around you? Do you have that undeniable proof? Because if not, I'm can keep believing what I think is right, right?
    This isn't about the discussion of a creator, it's about the disproof of the Judeo-Christian God. Logic is undeniable proof, especially with a subject of which exists no hard evidence. Since I have logic on my side, while you have the illogical Bible from which I base my logic on, I would venture to say that the Judeo-Christian God does not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Guess it's my turn to say: Umad?

    YUP. HE MAD

    Don't sweat it fella,
    I know you worked hard at presenting your recycled theory here.

    I've already contributed plenty to this thread,
    and if that was not the case, then why lower yourself to argue with a God fearing, God loving cretin like myself?
    So far you've compared my intellect to that of a kindergartner,
    yet you continue to reply to my posts.
    Not saying too much about yourself my friend, now is it?

    Well, this is going to be my final post in this thread.
    I will respect your wishes and depart,
    since it seems it doesn't matter what I post,
    You sir, will just deem it nonsense.

    Logic can only disprove theistic proofs. Disproving theistic proofs does not mean there is no God. It only means that the proofs thus presented are insufficient. Anytime I speak of God, I speak of God in the Bible.
    In the Bible, God the father is the creator.(clearing up the earlier confusion)

    Anyway,
    Logic can only disprove theistic proofs that are presented and negating such proofs is not a refutation of all possible proofs since no one can know or present all possible proofs of God's existence. Therefore, negation of proofs does not disprove God's existence.

    The omnipotence argument:

    Human languages do not contain words that correctly describe this supernatural characteristic of God.
    This makes complete sense according to the characteristics of God in the scripture.

    We are dealing with a logical paradox here..plain and simple.

    It falls into the same category as; an irresistible force meeting an immovable object. If a force is truly irresistible, it can move any object. Conversely, if an object is truly immovable, it can resist any force.

    Arguments like these don't really disprove God being all powerful..
    They prove that Man has an incomplete or inaccurate understanding of this aspect of God's nature. They simply prove what everyone already knows - that human language is not perfect and is not capable of fully describing God's divine nature.

    Here is a perfect example of this, and we were just discussing this in my Theology class about 3 weeks ago.

    Isaiah 40:22
    "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
    And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
    Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
    And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

    The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.

    At this time, there was no word for sphere in Hebrew,
    So as you see, the scribe that wrote for Isaiah had to use what was familiar to them to best describe God's message given to the prophet.

    Interesting side fact here:
    The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in this book On the Heavens. (just sayin)

    So are you getting my point here..?
    I started with it , and I will end with it.

    The prophets did their best with the language they spoke,
    to best convey God's message.
    Whether it was perfect or not has been a subject of skepticism for many, many years. That is all.
    You obviously still have a limited understanding of how logic works. If it isn't logical, it cannot exist in our universe. The problem with your sight is seeing that, because the prophets weren't perfect, how do we know any of this is true?

    We don't. And that is the problem with your whole religion. At the end of the day, you don't actually have any idea.

    You said it yourself.

    "Logic can only disprove theistic proofs," - Ethereal
    Last edited by barklolbark; 02-02-2011 at 10:04 PM.

  2. #167
    Synchromanica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barklolbark View Post
    This isn't about the discussion of a creator, it's about the disproof of the Judeo-Christian God. Logic is undeniable proof, especially with a subject of which exists no hard evidence. Since I have logic on my side, while you have the illogical Bible from which I base my logic on, I would venture to say that the Judeo-Christian God does not exist.
    And I believe that the creator is God. Logic exists, but not everything is logical.

    You obviously still have a limited understanding of how logic works. If it isn't logical, it cannot exist in our universe. The problem with your sight is seeing that, because the prophets weren't perfect, how do we know any of this is true?
    Lets say that I do something illogical, like, here's an example. Here's a straight guy, been straight for all his life, but out of nowhere, he fucks a guy for no reason. That's illogical. So, because it's illogical, it never happened?

    DEFINITIONS:
    1.
    the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
    2.
    a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
    3.
    the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
    4.
    reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
    5.
    convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.

    Nowhere here does the dictionary even hint that Logic is undeniable. Now, you have no proof that Logic is undeniable, while I have full proof that Logic isn't undeniable. Does that make my logic right? Yes, and that's why it's undeniable. It's not undeniable because it's logic, it's undeniable because I can prove my logic right.

  3. #168
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post


    And I believe that the creator is God. Logic exists, but not everything is logical.



    Lets say that I do something illogical, like, here's an example. Here's a straight guy, been straight for all his life, but out of nowhere, he fucks a guy for no reason. That's illogical. So, because it's illogical, it never happened?

    DEFINITIONS:
    1.
    the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
    2.
    a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
    3.
    the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
    4.
    reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
    5.
    convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.

    Nowhere here does the dictionary even hint that Logic is undeniable. Now, you have no proof that Logic is undeniable, while I have full proof that Logic isn't undeniable. Does that make my logic right? Yes, and that's why it's undeniable. It's not undeniable because it's logic, it's undeniable because I can prove my logic right.
    Straight men do not having consensual sexual relations with other men by definition, you presented an internally inconsistent scenario that never happens. One's sexual orientation could change with time but the scenario you presented does not occur. Simply because you can form a contradictory hypothetical scenario doesn't mean it actually represents the nature of the world.
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  4. #169
    WOLFPACK X69X's Avatar
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    christianity is the only way to go nuff said

  5. #170
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisWebby View Post
    christianity is the only way to go nuff said
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  6. #171
    WOLFPACK X69X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    mhm yes really

  7. #172
    Synchromanica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Straight men do not having consensual sexual relations with other men by definition, you presented an internally inconsistent scenario that never happens. One's sexual orientation could change with time but the scenario you presented does not occur. Simply because you can form a contradictory hypothetical scenario doesn't mean it actually represents the nature of the world.
    =Illogical.

  8. #173
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barklolbark View Post

    You obviously still have a limited understanding of how logic works. If it isn't logical, it cannot exist in our universe. The problem with your sight is seeing that, because the prophets weren't perfect, how do we know any of this is true?

    We don't. And that is the problem with your whole religion. At the end of the day, you don't actually have any idea.

    You said it yourself.

    "Logic can only disprove theistic proofs," - Ethereal

    God is not limited by anything and is above the concept of human logic- Gods logic is not comprehensible to us.

    Isaiah 55
    8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,"
    declares the LORD.

    9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Yeah, and over 2,000 years it kind of gets hard to prove something through text alone, hence why I said insufficient evidence.

    Oh damn I was supposed to be done with this thread.

    K done for real.

  9. #174
    Paroxysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post


    =Illogical.
    Yes that is illogically and guess what, IT NEVER HAPPENS. Funny how logic works eh?
    "We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter." ~ Denis Diderot

  10. #175
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Never said it is impossible for an all powerful being to exist (given a few specific exceptions), but when it comes to deciding what we believe to be true we should let reason guide us, not default to what our parents held as true.
    oh i'm fully with you there, problem is tho that most of the people here are kids and don't really understand the "don't believe everything someone tells you" logic.


  11. #176
    barklolbark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post


    And I believe that the creator is God. Logic exists, but not everything is logical.
    Assuming your only proof of this made up phenomenon is your "evidence" below, I'd say otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Lets say that I do something illogical, like, here's an example. Here's a straight guy, been straight for all his life, but out of nowhere, he fucks a guy for no reason. That's illogical. So, because it's illogical, it never happened?

    DEFINITIONS:
    1.
    the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
    2.
    a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
    3.
    the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
    4.
    reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
    5.
    convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.

    Nowhere here does the dictionary even hint that Logic is undeniable. Now, you have no proof that Logic is undeniable, while I have full proof that Logic isn't undeniable. Does that make my logic right? Yes, and that's why it's undeniable. It's not undeniable because it's logic, it's undeniable because I can prove my logic right.
    "Logic (from the Greek λογική logikē) is the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning."

    This would be the correct definition in this instance. If you deny correct logic, you are ignorant. Of course logic is deniable. When did I say it wasn't? You can deny that I am a Caucasian male all you want, but considering my skin tone and the addition of a reproductive organ in the shape of a penis, denying this logic would be ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    God is not limited by anything and is above the concept of human logic- Gods logic is not comprehensible to us.

    Isaiah 55
    8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,"
    declares the LORD.

    9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Yeah, and over 2,000 years it kind of gets hard to prove something through text alone, hence why I said insufficient evidence.

    Oh damn I was supposed to be done with this thread.

    K done for real.
    For the second time now;

    Should you argue that human logic does not apply to god - by the argument's reflexive properties - you argue you cannot trust your OWN concepts of god - and thus, you have no reason to believe in a god; because, if human logic cannot be trusted, neither can yours. In addition, if you believe your logic of god is trustworthy, but not another human's, you idolize yourself equivilent of a demigod - a feat which is condemned by Judeo-Christian religions and is thus impossible.

    Do also note that anything existing in your universe is judged by logic, or it cannot exist. As such, God cannot act outside of logic in a universe which he is omnipresent in. You said it yourself, he cannot contradict himself. And yet he does.

  12. #177
    Empire's Avatar
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    well why would human logic apply TO god anyway tho?

    If god exist, wouldn't only his logic be valid to him?


  13. #178
    barklolbark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    well why would human logic apply TO god anyway tho?

    If god exist, wouldn't only his logic be valid to him?
    Because God exists in this universe, and this whole universe is governed by universal laws and logic. Since, in Judeo-Christian religions, he is omnipresent, the Abrahamic God is flawed and cannot exist.

  14. #179
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barklolbark View Post
    Because God exists in this universe, and this whole universe is governed by universal laws and logic. Since, in Judeo-Christian religions, he is omnipresent, the Abrahamic God is flawed and cannot exist.
    :/ how is it flawed? Isn't that just your opinion?

    Omnipresent would also be true if you used any logic though, don't see the issue there.


  15. #180
    barklolbark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    :/ how is it flawed? Isn't that just your opinion?

    Omnipresent would also be true if you used any logic though, don't see the issue there.
    If he does not follow my premises in my OP, he is illogical. Using the argument that he can defy logic is simple unacceptable, because "holy" books of Abrahamic Religions state that God is omnipresent, meaning he exists everywhere, including our universe, which is defined by logic.

    If he does not comply with logic, he cannot exist in our universe. He is then not omnipresent, which is required by the God of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and does not exist according to Judeo-Christian standards.

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