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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post


    A threat to everyday life?

    Care to elaborate?
    Oh sorry, missed that.


    Well first off I have to say, in theory religion could be fine. A bit ludicrous like everyone believing in Santa, but it would be possible. If everyone kept their religion personal and it did not influence the government, media, and in the case of less developed nations: military. Then yes, religion could work.
    ----------------


    Now Aborted has the wrong idea. Religious extremist pose a "threat", but not universal one, not one to everyday life.


    Religion has an odd 2-3 things that bother me.(i'm making a mega thread, i'll post it oneday..maybe).


    1. First, there is authority. For some reason the religious community just doesn't question anything, ever. It's like people have gotten so used to being in class that anything an authority says they just go along with it. Islam of course is the most recent religion to have this shown on a meaningful level, but the church has done it's fair share througout history.
    -Take this for example. Every "service" is basically a guy telling people a story about how God is wonderful and how awesome he is. Yet, there is no discussion. Which leads to stagnation. It leads to one person just continually brainwashing an audience to just accept shit.
    -Which is why you'll find that a lot of people don't have proof for anything in the Islam section, even if it's just basic quran quotes they can't tell you.

    2. Second: Now of course, if a more experienced person needs to explain a more "cryptic" passage, I get that. But what happens is interpretation. Which Christian history alone will tell you the ridiculous shit that went on there, but more to the modern era it's the "subtle" changes. Fire and Brimstone have been replaced by peace, yet the passage remains the same. Not only will people always interpret a passage to suit there benifits(whether it be converts or to hate on people), it becomes so silly that interpretations are used for personal gain all the time.

    3. Third: Implementation. Again, in THEORY religion is a fine practice. But more often than not it is aggressive, judgemental, and does nothing but fuck up society.

    I hate to say this, but religion doesn't improve society as a whole. It has often been another issue people have struggled over, rather than bond. The charity work from religious organizations is atrocious to say the least, the separation even among the same community has led to much strife, and lets not even get into the ridiculous amount of problems religion has had with government(even today).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aborted View Post

    The 'odds' of dying are rather fucking irrelevant. By that very logic everyone should be playing Russian Roulette because it's statistically safer than jumping off of a cliff. My point being that apparently you're ok with a religious institution being the root for countless murders just because they're 'less' than other ways to die. You haven't presented a single valid point, and it seems your entire argument is about lessening the reality by comparing the cold numbers to completely irrelevant deathcounts such as Stalin's regime. I don't remember making the argument that Stalin was religously motivated, so nice deflection there. Honestly Martin, that rambling rant was one of the single stupidest things I've ever seen come spewing from your mouth. Nothing but a massive Strawman, and not a single shred of rational thinking.
    But see I wasn't saying that religion isn't responsible for countless murders. I realize that.

    I was just addressing the point that religion is a threat to every day life.

    It's not.

    Is it dangerous? Yes. Is it a threat to everyday life? no.

    What I'm saying is if you're worrying about something, it shouldn't be religion.

    This rant was just a response to Empire saying that religion is a threat to everyday life. I used your examples as an outline for the rant.

    The reason I added the odds of dying is to show that on the list of threats to everyday life, religion is pretty low.

    The reason I added Stalin is to show that most violent regimes in the world are not religiously inspired.

    Every set of numbers were there to prove a different idea. Stalin wasn't there to show how religion wasn't the reason for everyday homicides, but rather to prove that religion isn't the reason for most violent regimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    http://www.mpgh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=496200

    I already did it.

    :/ The picture is very misleading, you should check your sources before you base a point on them.

    Explanation: It's the percentage of terrorist attackins in the us, which of course doesn't tell anyone anything except frequencey a group is labeled with a "terrorist attack" by the law.(in the US).
    Oh wow, didn't even know you made that thread.

    But hey, a man's gotta fight dirty(like using misleading info) when he's outnumbered

    "“Religions are, by definition, metaphors, after all: God is a dream, a hope, a woman, an ironist, a father, a city, a house of many rooms, a watchmaker who left his prize chronometer in the desert, someone who loves you—even, perhaps, against all evidence, a celestial being whose only interest is to make sure your football team, army, business, or marriage thrives, prospers, and triumphs over all opposition. Religions are places to stand and look and act, vantage points from which to view the world. So none of this is happening. Such things could not occur. Never a word of it is literally true.” .”
    I was Martin Johnson

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post

    Oh wow, didn't even know you made that thread.

    But hey, a man's gotta fight dirty(like using misleading info) when he's outnumbered
    Well I had to make it after the pic getting re-used so many times.

    It's not your fault, it's just that the original picture didn't have a title, which led so many people to not know exactly what was going on. It was kind of odd how many sites just used that picture without a link though, which made me think it was just a novice excel job.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post


    But see I wasn't saying that religion isn't responsible for countless murders. I realize that.

    I was just addressing the point that religion is a threat to every day life.

    It's not.

    Is it dangerous? Yes. Is it a threat to everyday life? no.

    What I'm saying is if you're worrying about something, it shouldn't be religion.

    This rant was just a response to Empire saying that religion is a threat to everyday life. I used your examples as an outline for the rant.

    The reason I added the odds of dying is to show that on the list of threats to everyday life, religion is pretty low.

    The reason I added Stalin is to show that most violent regimes in the world are not religiously inspired.

    Every set of numbers were there to prove a different idea. Stalin wasn't there to show how religion wasn't the reason for everyday homicides, but rather to prove that religion isn't the reason for most violent regimes.



    Oh wow, didn't even know you made that thread.

    But hey, a man's gotta fight dirty(like using misleading info) when he's outnumbered
    It is a threat to everyday in certain regions of the world, but I do see your point. My issue is that just because it doesn't apply directly to us in the Anglosphere in no way diminishes the fact that it's a major problem.
    When the earth is changed into a humid dungeon,
    In which Hope like a bat
    Goes beating the walls with her timid wings
    And knocking her head against the rotten ceiling;
    When the rain stretching out its endless train
    Imitates the bars of a vast prison
    And a silent horde of loathsome spiders
    Comes to spin their webs in the depths of our brains,
    All at once the bells leap with rage
    And hurl a frightful roar at heaven,
    Even as wandering spirits with no country
    Burst into a stubborn, whimpering cry.
    — And without drums or music, long hearses
    Pass by slowly in my soul; Hope, vanquished,
    Weeps, and atrocious, despotic Anguish
    On my bowed skull plants her black flag.

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    Well first off, God gave people free will. He isnt' going to just control everyone like puppets, if he did that then he'd have to save everyone.

    After Adam and Eve, people (All of Humanity) was cursed to live in pain and suffering as long as they walked the earth. God however later on selected people to save or protect since he liked their loyalty. So that select group he protected and still protects even today. However even though he does watch over that one group of people he still test their faith by allowing trials to go against them. EX: Letting someone die, letting them get raped, letting them experience hardships. If the person goes through those trials he/she once again proves their loyalty and God rewards them again. God does know everything but he has given people free will. He won't control people. He wants people to prove on their own that they are loyal to him. So yea, I worship him still. Even thought my life is full of crap sometimes, I just think of it as a test, get through it, and sure enough after all the bull crap, lots of good things happen to me. Coincidence? Maybe, but that's when you factor faith in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aborted View Post

    It is a threat to everyday in certain regions of the world, but I do see your point. My issue is that just because it doesn't apply directly to us in the Anglosphere in no way diminishes the fact that it's a major problem.
    I think in theory that religion doesn't reflect the modernized world. However much of the world isn't a part of that, and you can actually see how heavily religion influences people in general.

    Then you can delve into what people misinterpret or abuse from religions.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rvn View Post
    Well first off, God gave people free will. He isnt' going to just control everyone like puppets, if he did that then he'd have to save everyone.

    After Adam and Eve, people (All of Humanity) was cursed to live in pain and suffering as long as they walked the earth. God however later on selected people to save or protect since he liked their loyalty. So that select group he protected and still protects even today. However even though he does watch over that one group of people he still test their faith by allowing trials to go against them. EX: Letting someone die, letting them get raped, letting them experience hardships. If the person goes through those trials he/she once again proves their loyalty and God rewards them again. God does know everything but he has given people free will. He won't control people. He wants people to prove on their own that they are loyal to him. So yea, I worship him still. Even thought my life is full of crap sometimes, I just think of it as a test, get through it, and sure enough after all the bull crap, lots of good things happen to me. Coincidence? Maybe, but that's when you factor faith in.
    Free will is just a poor mans argument when you cant tangibly attribute a God to any event in recent (aka accurately documented) history.

    > God didn't prevent bad things because free will and testing

    > This good or positive event happened thanks to God

    God is either malevolent (in which case he is harmful or evil), indifferent (in which case God has no bearing on humanity, past, present, or future), or he simply doesn't exist (this is the correct one).
    Last edited by Doc; 02-20-2014 at 07:18 AM.

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  10. #53
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    In breezing through this thread, it seems some people are considering the Christian god as the only choice. So a lot of this discussion is off-topic.
    @Ghost
    If I were teaching my son how to ride a bike, and let him off on his own, knowing he would fall a few times, is that malevolent? I inadvertently let him fall on purpose.

    If God did exist, and were omniscient, how can you have the audacity to claim you know he is evil, without immediately first seeing the logicfail? In order to place a definition on "good" and "bad", must you not know first everything that exists, to see the bigger picture? That guy who cut you off on the highway in your way to work and you flipped and cursed him off - what if he just lost his wife and kids in a car crash 2 days ago, can barely function, and it was a complete accident? Who was in the wrong there? You can't presume to know everyone's story, and therefore cannot presume to know what is right or wrong. Since you do not know what is right or wrong, then how can you say God is evil? The only thing you do know in this case is how other people's actions make you feel. Most people then attribute their own emotional reactions to something good or evil, but that is assuming a universal set of values, life circumstances, personalities etc. How accurate is that? And you could argue that murder is wrong because everyone agrees. But could you? Did Hitler truly believe that? Oh, well that's just an anomaly. What if you had a gun in your pocket when you and your friend were out late one night grabbing lunch, and you got held up by 3 guys with an obvious intention to kill. Would it be wrong to kill them before they killed you, if you truly believed you were going to die if you didn't? What would make this OK and the original statement that all murder is bad different? What if Hitler subconsciously believed, and never publicly revealed to anyone, the Jews would eventually kill everyone on the planet or something like that and was just trying to save the world? Too many unknowns. Too many gray areas.

    Which would be more pleasing to you: 1) teaching your son how to build a lego tower exactly from the instructions, and he can do it extremely well and efficient, exactly as in the instructions; or 2) teaching your son how to build legos, encouraging him to be creative and realize through construction his own ideas? This is what Christians believe God did. Some lego creations might suck. But seeing your son build anything is worth most.

    If you are serious about investigating this, check out Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. or you can look me up on skype.

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  12. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post


    Free will is just a poor mans argument when you cant tangibly attribute a God to any event in recent (aka accurately documented) history.

    > God didn't prevent bad things because free will and testing

    > This good or positive event happened thanks to God

    God is either malevolent (in which case he is harmful or evil), indifferent (in which case God has no bearing on humanity, past, present, or future), or he simply doesn't exist (this is the correct one).
    Prove god doesn't exist and I'll believe you. The bible foretells world war 1, as well as the cursing of the Jews and their dispersal. You can't reject those two proofs. Look it up. Verses describe new technology such as tanks, jets, and guns. Things that couldn't have existed in that time. So either it was a lucky guess, or there is a God foretelling the future (this is the correct answer)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rvn View Post


    Prove god doesn't exist and I'll believe you. The bible foretells world war 1, as well as the cursing of the Jews and their dispersal. You can't reject those two proofs. Look it up. Verses describe new technology such as tanks, jets, and guns. Things that couldn't have existed in that time. So either it was a lucky guess, or there is a God foretelling the future (this is the correct answer)
    Oh not the "prophecy" shit again. Please, do not tell me you actually believe the bible "foretells" anything. Because I can interpret any of that to foretell half a dozen other things as well.

    Also, asking to prove something doesn't exist is an oxymoron. If you can't prove that Unicorns, Satan, and Dragons exist, then they don't. But somehow we draw the line at god. Not just any god, your god. Odin can't exist because.......why? Ra can't exist because.....why?

    Your logic is self-defeating.


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    Quote Originally Posted by maddoggy00 View Post

    If God did exist, and were omniscient, how can you have the audacity to claim you know he is evil, without immediately first seeing the logicfail? In order to place a definition on "good" and "bad", must you not know first everything that exists, to see the bigger picture? That guy who cut you off on the highway in your way to work and you flipped and cursed him off - what if he just lost his wife and kids in a car crash 2 days ago, can barely function, and it was a complete accident? Who was in the wrong there? You can't presume to know everyone's story, and therefore cannot presume to know what is right or wrong. Since you do not know what is right or wrong, then how can you say God is evil? The only thing you do know in this case is how other people's actions make you feel. Most people then attribute their own emotional reactions to something good or evil, but that is assuming a universal set of values, life circumstances, personalities etc. How accurate is that? And you could argue that murder is wrong because everyone agrees. But could you? Did Hitler truly believe that? Oh, well that's just an anomaly. What if you had a gun in your pocket when you and your friend were out late one night grabbing lunch, and you got held up by 3 guys with an obvious intention to kill. Would it be wrong to kill them before they killed you, if you truly believed you were going to die if you didn't? What would make this OK and the original statement that all murder is bad different? What if Hitler subconsciously believed, and never publicly revealed to anyone, the Jews would eventually kill everyone on the planet or something like that and was just trying to save the world? Too many unknowns. Too many gray areas.

    Which would be more pleasing to you: 1) teaching your son how to build a lego tower exactly from the instructions, and he can do it extremely well and efficient, exactly as in the instructions; or 2) teaching your son how to build legos, encouraging him to be creative and realize through construction his own ideas? This is what Christians believe God did. Some lego creations might suck. But seeing your son build anything is worth most.

    If you are serious about investigating this, check out Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. or you can look me up on skype.
    Well it's easy to call god "Evil" because he exhibits the behaviors that an evil person would. That's really all there is to it.

    Also, your pass at ethics is laughably bad. It's the common misconception by kids that "everything isn't black and white and it's grey", which is fine but not always applicable to everything. Not everything is grey, which is something by default you'd think people would notice using that philosophy.


    Applying that to religion is just silly, but I can see you are going for the "free will" aspect of it.

    It's sad. It truly is. People believe in "free will" while accepting an authority's word without question. It's almost a complete hypocrisy of concept lol.



    Listen, it's cute that you think "free will" is applyable to god, and if you want to live in ignorance be my guest. But don't bring that here and expect people to go "oh yeah, i guess we can just ignore all that shit god supposedly did to people becuase free-will lololololol".


    If god existed he's either an asshole or he abandoned people long ago(according to religion), but logic/truth tells us that he doesn't exist so there isn't much to debate there.


  15. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rvn View Post

    Prove god doesn't exist and I'll believe you. The bible foretells world war 1, as well as the cursing of the Jews and their dispersal. You can't reject those two proofs. Look it up. Verses describe new technology such as tanks, jets, and guns. Things that couldn't have existed in that time. So either it was a lucky guess, or there is a God foretelling the future (this is the correct answer)
    I don't think verses ever explicitly described tanks, jets guns etc. You might want to reference what you're referring to. Also, to my knowledge, the bible did not foretell of WW1 (reference?). It did foretell of the Jews' dissolution and reclaiming of their homeland, though.



    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Well it's easy to call god "Evil" because he exhibits the behaviors that an evil person would. That's really all there is to it.
    Who gets to decide what is evil? You? Hussein? Hitler? That's the whole point I was making. You need to think about it a little more, especially before making a inert declaration lol.

    On a side note, everything you posted is just standalone unthreaded statements. Where is your logic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    If god existed he's either an asshole or he abandoned people long ago(according to religion), but logic/truth tells us that he doesn't exist so there isn't much to debate there.
    This would be a good place to elaborate your logic. But you didn't.



    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    -Take this for example. Every "service" is basically a guy telling people a story about how God is wonderful and how awesome he is. Yet, there is no discussion. Which leads to stagnation.
    While that may be true for some, any person who actually cares about their religion does not just go to one 1-hour service weekly. Most people will be involved also in a group study(s), which is where this discussion would take place.
    Also, be mindful that the reverend, rabbi, Brahma or anyone who practices Islam (most sects don't have a dedicated person to consistently lead services in the way you are referring to) pretty much always have people to keep them in check. For Islam, that should be pretty self evident. For instance, for a reverend there is a group of people called elders, usually who total in number ~5% of the congregation, who are actually in charge of the reverend. If he preaches crap, they can fire him.
    Last edited by maddoggy00; 02-20-2014 at 03:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post


    Free will is just a poor mans argument when you cant tangibly attribute a God to any event in recent (aka accurately documented) history.

    > God didn't prevent bad things because free will and testing

    > This good or positive event happened thanks to God

    God is either malevolent (in which case he is harmful or evil), indifferent (in which case God has no bearing on humanity, past, present, or future), or he simply doesn't exist (this is the correct one).


    But see here's the flaw with your argument.

    The concept that just because god lets bad things happen but lets good things happen he is evil or nonexistent.

    When a god(whatever god you want to pick, idc about gods anyways) lets bad things happen it's so that humanity learns from it. It's all part of developing as a species.

    A god lets good things happen as an incentive to keep going or just something to spark hope.

    Think of it this way, how would human kind be if nothing bad happened?

    It's all about Yin and Yang, the ancients understood and so should we.

    Edit:

    HOLD UP! AM I ACTUALLY FINALLY GETTING SOMEONE ON MY SIDE WHO CAN DEBATE?

    Holy crap dude @maddoggy00 thanks for showing up m8.

    I don't really care about religion but I always debate in favor of it. The problem was that every religious person on here is either brain dead or just really bad at english.
    Last edited by Martin Johnson; 02-20-2014 at 05:29 PM.

    "“Religions are, by definition, metaphors, after all: God is a dream, a hope, a woman, an ironist, a father, a city, a house of many rooms, a watchmaker who left his prize chronometer in the desert, someone who loves you—even, perhaps, against all evidence, a celestial being whose only interest is to make sure your football team, army, business, or marriage thrives, prospers, and triumphs over all opposition. Religions are places to stand and look and act, vantage points from which to view the world. So none of this is happening. Such things could not occur. Never a word of it is literally true.” .”
    I was Martin Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Oh not the "prophecy" shit again. Please, do not tell me you actually believe the bible "foretells" anything. Because I can interpret any of that to foretell half a dozen other things as well.

    Also, asking to prove something doesn't exist is an oxymoron. If you can't prove that Unicorns, Satan, and Dragons exist, then they don't. But somehow we draw the line at god. Not just any god, your god. Odin can't exist because.......why? Ra can't exist because.....why?

    Your logic is self-defeating.
    Well then back up what you said, give me some verse that perhaps foretells something when it obviously doesn't. And yea the bible can be interpreted in anyway, so if you want it to mean a certain thing you can, the true meaning can't just be seen by anyone that's even written. Only certain people can actually get the real meaning and teach it, and those are chosen people, meaning no every religion is true. Obviously I'm only saying that because I believe mine is.

    A person can't foretell the future, no human can, they can only guess. A weather man can't even be 100% sure of rain the next day. So if something is foretold then it must be some kind of divinity. I doubt a person, or should I say persons, that wrote the bible all happened to guessed correctly. God cursed the jews, said they would be cast out, and what happened they were. Spread all over, with no place to call their country. The bible described a war involving all nations and all kingdoms, what does that sound like to you? A world war maybe. Sounds reasonable. I'll edit this post when I get back, I'll search up the verses for you. For me, it's hard to not believe a book that foretells things thousands of years before it's time. That one characteristic of the bible is what makes it different from any other book. If that characteristic wasn't really there, I'd turn atheist in one second, but the fact is, it is there, and there's proof.
    Last edited by Rvn; 02-20-2014 at 05:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddoggy00 View Post

    1. Who gets to decide what is evil? You? Hussein? Hitler? That's the whole point I was making. You need to think about it a little more, especially before making a inert declaration lol.

    On a side note, everything you posted is just standalone unthreaded statements. Where is your logic?

    2. This would be a good place to elaborate your logic. But you didn't.



    Edit:

    3. While that may be true for some, any person who actually cares about their religion does not just go to one 1-hour service weekly. Most people will be involved also in a group study(s), which is where this discussion would take place.
    Also, be mindful that the reverend, rabbi, Brahma or anyone who practices Islam (most sects don't have a dedicated person to consistently lead services in the way you are referring to) pretty much always have people to keep them in check. For Islam, that should be pretty self evident. For instance, for a reverend there is a group of people called elders, usually who total in number ~5% of the congregation, who are actually in charge of the reverend. If he preaches crap, they can fire him.
    *facepalm* You want me to define evil to you? Really?
    e·vil
    ˈēvəl/Submit
    adjective
    1.
    profoundly immoral and malevolent.

    There, god is evil. Done. Shibang, stop fucking referencing people like stalin and hitler to try and make your point. One thing you need to learn is not everything is "grey".

    2. Well given the abrahamic god. You know, the one who killed innocent people to "test" others, the one who made a system of "sin" that made absolutely no sense, then created laws later pretty much undermining his presence before. The other gods have more general flaws, easy enough to spot that I don't think you need me sitting here listing out the thousand and one reasons Zeus was fucked up.

    3. I don't think you understand the flaw with an authority in organized religion. It's a person dictating what is said, not self-evident scripture.(which you'd think God would do, since you know: "omnipotence" and all) The elders work the same way the "board members" do in a corporation, the problem is that most of them are there for business purposes and maintaining the community, they aren't very "scholarly" if you know what I mean.
    -----------------------------

    Listen, I know you are going to respond with:

    1. But it could be grey you know? Maybe we just don't know the reason god did that.
    Listen: I don't have time for me to sit here and watch you grow up to realize that yes: some things are just wrong. What god did, what he didn't do, is wrong. Free will and "grey" don't excuse the acts God supposedly did.
    - Choosing to believe an evil god is the main reason I left christianity.

    2. Some generic response upon how the leadership is fine and how it isn't a problem.

    Obviously you don't understand the problems with dictation and authority within organized religion. I'd reference the entire history of the Islamic and Catholic church, or the Greek/Roman god's, or the Norse, or the Egyptian, but I doubt you'd see the relevance of history.(most kids don't sadly.)

    So I'll just ask you this: How many people do you think turned atheist when what they find contradicts what the leader says and his answer was insufficient? A lot. It's not the fault of the leader, it's not the fault of the organization, it's the religion. It gives insufficient answers to questions that people have. No religion answers the questions people have, questions that needed answering at the time of it's creation, and still exist today.

    :/


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