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  1. #16
    Necc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsNotRance View Post
    Why don't YOU do some research?

    That last statement has to be a troll... no you've probably been trolling the entire time.
    This was a research paper...as for trolling, I'm just having fun

    Quote Originally Posted by Aborted View Post

    And also all the knowledge, science, and thinkers that wouldn't have been repressed by religious institutions.
    *Insert Galileo here*
    First off, Galileo wasn't just shunned by religion. He was shunned by practically ALL scientist of that time who up to that point had the views of Aristotle, that is the geocentric view. Second, at the time, Galileo couldn't even PROVE heliocentricity scientifically and ultimately made it a matter of theology instead of science and that is why the Church claimed what he said was heresy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    1. Oh sorry, forgot to add "god of the gaps">(though its actually both)
    "We don't know = god did it".

    2. He can claim miracles, doesn't mean he's telling the truth. You know, reality vs fiction. If you can prove a miracle, go ahead, till then my opinion is more valid than the one against it.

    3. As if they couldn't obtain a reason to live outside of religion? How stupid can you get man. Even the religious don't have religion as the main reason they keep on living. Sheesh.

    4. No, we would be much farther ahead, I apologize.

    5. How about slavery, murder, and genocide? I know the abrahamic got all three wrong, among other things. Even basic equality doesn't exist.

    6. How are you this fucking stupid? If you need someone to tell you to not murder or else you get punished, then you are basically a fucking retard.




    Think of all the millions of people who wouldn't have died! We could have had 10 einsteins a thousand years ago!

    WE COULD BE RIDING SPACE BEARS RIGHT NOW! FUCK!


    1. Okay, so assuming God (or, I can't stress this enough, a higher order of your choice) doesn't exist, then how is it that humans and the world and space and all we know exists? Did it appear out of thin air? (Assuming air even existed for shit to appear in)

    2. miracle: "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency." what then caused these inexplicable events, if not a higher order?

    3. Its not a matter of living or dying so much as it is a matter of HOW one lives and dies :P

    4. Please no. Just no. What about the schools? Did you know that the first universities were started as seminaries for religion teaching for clergy? And that only the rich could afford them?

    5. No one said that people were perfect, heck no one said anything about perfection. But if they got it "wrong" then so have the many generations to follow them.

    6. You're right, man already knows right and wrong, its part of having a God given conscious. Most religions enforce and explain morality and divine punishment to discipline men to do the "good" thing.

    Honestly I would like to see you back up some of your claims. Basically It looks like you just post disbelief because you can't prove anything. I mean just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    1.God exist using: Argument from ignorance
    God does not exist using argument from ignorance?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necc View Post
    This was a research paper...as for trolling, I'm just having fun



    First off, Galileo wasn't just shunned by religion. He was shunned by practically ALL scientist of that time who up to that point had the views of Aristotle, that is the geocentric view. Second, at the time, Galileo couldn't even PROVE heliocentricity scientifically and ultimately made it a matter of theology instead of science and that is why the Church claimed what he said was heresy.





    1. Okay, so assuming God (or, I can't stress this enough, a higher order of your choice) doesn't exist, then how is it that humans and the world and space and all we know exists? Did it appear out of thin air? (Assuming air even existed for shit to appear in)

    2. miracle: "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency." what then caused these inexplicable events, if not a higher order?

    3. Its not a matter of living or dying so much as it is a matter of HOW one lives and dies :P

    4. Please no. Just no. What about the schools? Did you know that the first universities were started as seminaries for religion teaching for clergy? And that only the rich could afford them?

    5. No one said that people were perfect, heck no one said anything about perfection. But if they got it "wrong" then so have the many generations to follow them.

    6. You're right, man already knows right and wrong, its part of having a God given conscious. Most religions enforce and explain morality and divine punishment to discipline men to do the "good" thing.

    Honestly I would like to see you back up some of your claims. Basically It looks like you just post disbelief because you can't prove anything. I mean just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



    God does not exist using argument from ignorance?
    Please research history on Galileo, you are wrong.


    1. Not here to tell you what the big bang theory is. Google it yourself.

    2. Work on reading comprehension. Miracles by these religious people are just claims, there has been not ONE proof that any of these were outside the realm of nature.
    =Same with claims of aliens or bigfoot or w/e, Unless you have proof your claim is invalid.

    3. Meaning out of life, yes. However you can find deeper/better meaning than you will find in a religion. Again, it's not like religion has a monopoly

    4. *Laughs*. Oh man, you think the first institution for scriptural learning was from Christianity? Lulz.

    5. People? I'm talking about the Abrahamic God.

    6. God of the gaps again? Cmon now. Most religions have a horrible moral system. I know for a fact the Abrahamic ones do. The Hindu has the caste system, not really sure on the shinto one though.


    What claims would you like me to back up?(I'll be glad to do this).
    Last edited by Empire; 07-24-2014 at 09:18 PM.


  3. #18
    Necc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Please research history on Galileo, you are wrong.


    1. Not here to tell you what the big bang theory is. Google it yourself.

    2. Work on reading comprehension. Miracles by these religious people are just claims, there has been not ONE proof that any of these were outside the realm of nature.
    =Same with claims of aliens or bigfoot or w/e, Unless you have proof your claim is invalid.

    3. Meaning out of life, yes. However you can find deeper/better meaning than you will find in a religion. Again, it's not like religion has a monopoly

    4. *Laughs*. Oh man, you think the first institution for scriptural learning was from Christianity? Lulz.

    5. People? I'm talking about the Abrahamic God.

    6. God of the gaps again? Cmon now. Most religions have a horrible moral system. I know for a fact the Abrahamic ones do. The Hindu has the caste system, not really sure on the shinto one though.


    What claims would you like me to back up?(I'll be glad to do this).
    1. I have googled it, not sure why I would need to though. Me googling it doesn't' change anything. Back to square one. What caused the big bang? Nothing? Yeah, ok. Did you even ready my first paragraph? Have you ever seen something come out of nothing?

    2. Sigh. miracle: "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency." How do you expect to find evidence for something like that? Anyway, your testimony against them is just as valid as those who proport them. There are many cases of inexplicable events that favor someone in someway. Let me guess, because you haven't seen it then it must not be true? Just google it. One in particular: "The day the sun danced" and another one "Our Lady of Lourdes". Some of the more current and popular cases with surrounding events of claimed miracles.

    3. I would like you to back this one up. "However you can find deeper/better meaning than you will find in a religion." Please explain, it seems vague...

    4. I didn't say institutions, I said UNIVERSITIES. And it wasn't all scripture. Just google "university wikipedia"

    5. Assuming God is God...then can he not do whatever the fuck he wants with us? You can back this one up too. Give me some examples please

    6. What christian religion has a horrible moral system? Do the Buddhists?

    Please tell me how you can disprove God or a higher order? I would like to see that.
    Last edited by Necc; 07-24-2014 at 10:17 PM.

  4. #19
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necc View Post
    1. I have googled it, not sure why I would need to though. Me googling it doesn't' change anything. Back to square one. What caused the big bang? Nothing? Yeah, ok. Did you even ready my first paragraph? Have you ever seen something come out of nothing?

    2. Sigh. miracle: "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency." How do you expect to find evidence for something like that? Anyway, your testimony against them is just as valid as those who proport them. There are many cases of inexplicable events that favor someone in someway. Let me guess, because you haven't seen it then it must not be true? Just google it. One in particular: "The day the sun danced" and another one "Our Lady of Lourdes". Some of the more current and popular cases with surrounding events of claimed miracles.

    3. I would like you to back this one up. "However you can find deeper/better meaning than you will find in a religion." Please explain, it seems vague...

    4. I didn't say institutions, I said UNIVERSITIES. And it wasn't all scripture. Just google "university wikipedia"

    5. Assuming God is God...then can he not do whatever the fuck he wants with us? You can back this one up too. Give me some examples please

    6. What christian religion has a horrible moral system? Do the Buddhists?

    Please tell me how you can disprove God or a higher order? I would like to see that.
    1. Ugh. This is just the stupidest statement. "what came before the big bang". "we don't know, so therefore god.". It's such a moronic tendency of man to just attribute the unknown to god. You clearly don't have any intention of actually learning about universal creation, but just to dismiss all scientific evidence in favor of philosophical terms. I mean your entire argument is based upon the God-of-the-Gaps fallacy and starting with the conclusion of "god exist" and working backwards to try and prove it. That's not how science(or logic) works. If you can't find an explanation for god, then you can't just assume he exist based on nothing.

    -If all the evidence points in one direction, ALL of it, and none in the direction of God or religion, then religion just isn't right.


    2. If you make a claim and cannot back it up, then your claim is invalid. I don't have "testimony" against them, I have reasons not to believe them, the most vital one being lack of any proof..There has been a logical explanation or proof of these events not being miracles every time. Seriously, there have been tens of thousands of claims of miracles and not one of them has gotten recognition as something beyond the laws of nature.

    3. Sure. Family, friends, all of mankind, the arts, invention, mankind's limits, all these things give a greater meaning than following a religion. Believing that some being created you and that you must follow his rules does not give your life any deeper meaning. The absurdity that religion gives deeper meaning than anything else in life is just as everything else in religion......unproven.

    4. And? Your point has nothing to do with religion nor the need for it. I'm sorry but the topic is the need for religion right? I don't see anywhere the need for religion in that. Religion didn't even have an influence on that, those people happened to follow a religion, but did the religion actually cause it? (talking about university and higher education).

    5. Do you want examples of slavery, genocide, and murder in the bible from God? Or reasons why God doesn't have the right to do whatever he want?
    A) Well genocide is easy. God continually does this(and orders it). From the Amalekites, to the Egyptians(even the slaves), to Noah, to Sodom and Gommorah.....(the list really does go on, I mean god pretty much just has random episodes of slaughter given any reason.).
    B) Murder is encouraged through so many of the Laws of the bible(handed down from god himself), outside of the basic "kill your enemy" type stuff. Stoning is generally the preferred form.(stone them for breaking X law, however petty it is.)

    Numbers 15:32(start) for example, a man is (ordered by god) to be murdered for picking up sticks.
    C) Slavery is really just the non-abolishment of slavery and making laws on it. The bible did not denounce slavery.



    D) Well actually god could do whatever if he was what the bible/religion claims. But then he wouldn't be an all-good, ever-loving god now would he? Kind of a major inconsistency in the bible. God can murder anyone he wants, but he's still good?

    6. Generally Christianity has an awful moral system.
    A) It bases salvation on belief, so therefore works are utterly meaningless.
    B) Belief is only available to those who know/understand Jesus. So anyone who unlucky enough to be born outside of the area of knowledge goes to hell regardless.
    C) The Old Testament. Pretty much everything in it in one way or another.
    D) Morality itself in christianity is very simple: Obey or be punished. Believe or go to hell. None of morality is explained or really known in christianity, especially not past what was already known throughout Rome at the time.

    Buddhism is more of a "way of life" than a religion. It places no great importance on gods and although I think many of it's moral codes are useful, I doubt you could make the argument that you needed to practice buddhism for you to follow them.-
    --------------------------------

    Burden of Proof is on you for God's existence.

    I don't have to disprove the existence of god, you have to prove it.


    You have yet to prove:

    1. That a god exist.(much less the god of any one of the thousands of religions).
    2. That morality comes from religion or god.
    3. That we as a society need religion and cannot find what religion supposedly "gives" elsewhere.

    And by the way, starting a debate with "God exist" (something not even the greatest of debaters has yet to prove), is probably jumping the shark a bit..
    Last edited by Empire; 07-24-2014 at 11:14 PM.


  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necc View Post

    4. It built up society in that past. Without religion (religion, not God) we wouldn't be where we are now.

    6. Not true. Without religion and the moral code that my religion gives me (plus the moral code that God made in mankinds hearts) murder and the like would be way more rampant. I think I made mention of that in my last paragraph. Also, this thread isn't pointless. Your few silly sentences are a poor counter to a 5 page paper. C'mon, I thought you would do better than that! (I also thought you would be the only one to respond, lol)
    This whole topic was on why modern society needs a God/religion because currently society is jacked up to summarize your novel of a opening post. Which brings me to your 4th point on one of your replies. God/religion had 2000 years to get it right and it failed miserably which is why you even bothered to make this topic. So why would it be best to apply God/religion to this modern society that is no where near as proficient as it can be, if the applied notion of God/religion led us to this?

    To your 6th point, to loosely paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, " Are we to assume that the acient jewish people got all the way to Mt. Sinai under the impression that murder, purjury, and theft was ok, and only when told from on high, "Stop with that" suddenly thought that maybe they are such bad ideas after all. Of Course Not! There couldn't have been a jewish society or enough solidarity to get them that far if they all thought these things are fine until God says they aren't."

    As mentioned prior, the whole God-of-the-Gaps logic doesn't work. It's a flawed logic and one to be ashamed of. Everything complicated is definite proof that it needs a creator, well a god type entity with powers to create and destroy universes on a whim and is everywhere at once but yet never seen is much more complicated and per your logic, it demands a creator, yet you don't bring up the idea of God's creation or his creator, and the creators creator, etc. You find yourself backed up into a corner fast with that logic. It is a failed attempt to bring understanding to our universe and it deserves to be pushed aside so that we can finally prosper as a society.

  6. #21
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    A god is just as unlikely as there being no god, if the god was the first ever being it has been alive for infinite time, there for it made all things infinite time after a time when it was concious, if that is true then the infinite time has not been achieved yet and this earth can not have been created.

    there is no such thing as infinite time as it has no end, there for the chance of their being no god is less likely? Someone explain if my answer is incorrect please, as I have no idea what I'm typing xD.

  7. #22
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hezz View Post
    A god is just as unlikely as there being no god, if the god was the first ever being it has been alive for infinite time, there for it made all things infinite time after a time when it was concious, if that is true then the infinite time has not been achieved yet and this earth can not have been created.

    there is no such thing as infinite time as it has no end, there for the chance of their being no god is less likely? Someone explain if my answer is incorrect please, as I have no idea what I'm typing xD.
    "A god is just as unlikely as there being no god"
    "therefore the chance of their being no god is less likely"
    -Contradiction.

    This is a DEISTIC argument, religion(theism) does not partake in this. Basically what the argument boils down to is "+1". That is, if there is a chance that there is a god. Which is a kind of "false dichotomy" with existence. There is infinite possibilities, but until proven there is no reason to believe a claim.

    The counter argument is simple. Existence shall be denied until proven. So far God has not been proven.

    Last edited by Empire; 08-16-2014 at 04:54 PM.


  8. #23
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    Religion needs to be non-existent for a modern society

  9. #24
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    Religion must not exist for a modern society.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by K View Post
    Religion must not exist for a modern society.
    It depends of the point of view doe. I think the "modern priests" wouldn't agree with it.
    If you need help with anything, feel free to PM/VM me about it.


     
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    Please make sure to always ask me for a confirmation PM/VM before proceeding with any deal that supposedly involves me.

     



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  11. #26
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter! View Post
    It depends of the point of view doe. I think the "modern priests" wouldn't agree with it.
    Modern priest aren't needed though.....

    If any modern religion REALLY wanted their foundation to learn about their religion they'd just make an entire website on their religious holy book with all possible and justified explanations according to religious scholars and the current best translations.

    But nope. Only reason priest still have a job is that religion hasn't adapted to modern society.


  12. #27
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    Wow dude you went all out on this!

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