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  1. #1
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Codex Sinaiticus: The breakdown

    Recently Visible and I have gotten into a couple of heated debates over the Codex Sinaiticus.
    We agreed that we would debate it some more, but try to keep things as peaceful as possible,
    I do plan on keeping my word.

    For those that aren't familiar with the Codex origins,
    please visit this link.
    Codex Sinaiticus - Home

    Before I get into my own opinions about the Codex,
    I would like to discuss some things Visible made claims of,
    regarding Jesus Christ in these scriptures.
    This is not at all to start trouble,
    but some very bold claims were made, and I only wish to correct them.
    The Codex was recently translated in a few different languages from it's original Greek,
    So I will be giving you Greek to English translations,
    using the Codex Sinaiticus project website.

    Visible had made claim that Christ was not mentioned as the son of God.

    This is false information according to the Codex.
    Below are multiple passages where you will in fact see that Jesus is mentioned as the son of God.

    John 5:19-24
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | John |

    Luke 3:21-22
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Luke |

    Visible made claims that there was no immaculate conception in the codex.
    According to Matthew 1:18 this is false.

    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Matthew |

    Visible had made claims that Jesus was not crucified in the codex.
    According to the codex, this is false.

    Matthew 27:30-54
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Matthew |

    Visible had made claims that Jesus had not been resurrected in the codex.

    According to the codex, this is false.

    Romans 1:4-5
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Romans |

    Matthew 28:1-10
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Matthew |

    Again, Visible I do not want arguments with you.
    I just wanted to make clear of some bold statements you made,
    and only make them correct.
    All I'm asking, is please do not say
    "this is an anti-Islam site" Or.."This source isn't reliable, it's corrupt."
    You're from the UK..these documents can be seen at the British Library where they are openly displayed to the public.


    I am going to leave this post where it is for now.
    I did a lot of reading from my own Bible to find all of these verses,
    and my eyes are a bit spent at the moment.
    I will get into my own opinions of the Codex's actual validity at a later time.
    There were a few interesting things I found to be quite important.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-10-2010 at 08:32 PM.

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    Visible was wrong, wut else is new.


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    Visiblegaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Recently Visible and I have gotten into a couple of heated debates over the Codex Sinaiticus.
    We agreed that we would debate it some more, but try to keep things as peaceful as possible,
    I do plan on keeping my word.

    For those that aren't familiar with the Codex origins,
    please visit this link.
    Codex Sinaiticus - Home

    Before I get into my own opinions about the Codex,
    I would like to discuss some things Visible made claims of,
    regarding Jesus Christ in these scriptures.
    This is not at all to start trouble,
    but some very bold claims were made, and I only wish to correct them.
    The Codex was recently translated in a few different languages from it's original Greek,
    So I will be giving you Greek to English translations,
    using the Codex Sinaiticus project website.

    Visible had made claim that Christ was not mentioned as the son of God.

    This is false information according to the Codex.
    Below are multiple passages where you will in fact see that Jesus is mentioned as the son of God.

    John 5:19-24
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | John |

    Luke 3:21-22
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Luke |

    Visible made claims that there was no immaculate conception in the codex.
    According to Matthew 1:18 this is false.

    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Matthew |

    Visible had made claims that Jesus was not crucified in the codex.
    According to the codex, this is false.

    Matthew 27:30-54
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Matthew |

    Visible had made claims that Jesus had not been resurrected in the codex.

    According to the codex, this is false.

    Romans 1:4-5
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Romans |

    Matthew 28:1-10
    Codex Sinaiticus - See The Manuscript | Matthew |

    Again, Visible I do not want arguments with you.
    I just wanted to make clear of some bold statements you made,
    and only make them correct.
    All I'm asking, is please do not say
    "this is an anti-Islam site" Or.."This source isn't reliable, it's corrupt."
    You're from the UK..these documents can be seen at the British Library where they are openly displayed to the public.


    I am going to leave this post where it is for now.
    I did a lot of reading from my own Bible to find all of these verses,
    and my eyes are a bit spent at the moment.
    I will get into my own opinions of the Codex's actual validity at a later time.
    There were a few interesting things I found to be quite important.
    Why the false claims against me?

    1- I said Jesus isn't God, i did not say the codex sinaiticus doesn't talk about "the son" because lots of prophets are called son of God in the codex.

    2- No immaculate conceptions? ...I'm Muslim, i believe Jesus was born off a virgin, so again why this claim against me?

    3- I said Jesus was not killed, Im a Muslim i believe he was crucified -.-, show me where it says he died, like king james version does.

    3- your only valid point about me. BUT

    The bible was written after Jesus going up to heaven, so the people who write it could have believed it was truly Jesus that died as many Christians did. The Quran was sent down by angel Gabriel and was not written by man like the bible was, read this.

    "“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157)


    [Please make valid points about what i say or atleast qoute it, not benign to just make things up :/]

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    Empire's Avatar
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    :/ the codex says:

    1. Jesus is God's son.(in the text)
    -There isn't really another way to put it. What do you want the scripture to actually say?
    3. 58 this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded it to be given. Do you not know how crucifixtion works?(man my spelling is )

    4. Visible, why do you even make claims using the codex then? If you don't believe what it says, then why even bother to make claims using it?

    This is literally what you do:
    [Visible]Codex says jesus didn't die on the cross.
    [Ethereal]Yeah, it does, *cites codex*
    [Visible]Yeah but the Quran says he didn't.

    And then me: Well if the Quran says he didn't, why did you even use the codex?

    :/ Quran was made 500 years after Jesus died btw. So much for credibility.
    Last edited by Empire; 11-11-2010 at 02:09 AM.


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    Man,that's hellenistic koine(ελληνιστική κοινή) I think.
    how can you read that stuff without a headache? I can't,and I'm Greek

    Excelent translation.Truly excelent.
    Going to read all that I can until I get a headache
    Last edited by Casavir; 11-11-2010 at 03:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite42 View Post
    I am the sperm that won
    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Surprisingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    whoever made this thread... you just got owned by Casavir...
    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

    50% Spartan,50% Macedonian.100% Greek

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    smoke em up

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    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    Why the false claims against me?

    1- I said Jesus isn't God, i did not say the codex sinaiticus doesn't talk about "the son" because lots of prophets are called son of God in the codex.

    2- No immaculate conceptions? ...I'm Muslim, i believe Jesus was born off a virgin, so again why this claim against me?

    3- I said Jesus was not killed, Im a Muslim i believe he was crucified -.-, show me where it says he died, like king james version does.

    3- your only valid point about me. BUT

    The bible was written after Jesus going up to heaven, so the people who write it could have believed it was truly Jesus that died as many Christians did. The Quran was sent down by angel Gabriel and was not written by man like the bible was, read this.

    "“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157)


    [Please make valid points about what i say or atleast qoute it, not benign to just make things up :/]

    First off, why would I make this thread if you didn't make any of these claims. I can personally go through every one of these threads, and find where you made the claims.
    If they are edited within this day by you,
    that really just incriminates you.

    Secondly..are you kidding me?
    I can show you in multiple passages where it describes his death.

    Like how the Roman soldier speared Christ,in the rib
    but only blood and water flowed,
    thus proving the prophecy that not a bone in his body would be broken..even in death.

    The Angel that came down from heaven to take Jesus's body, which a Roman soldier and both Mary's witnessed. The Angel told both Mary's To meet The RESURRECTED Jesus in Galilee, and they both witnessed him.

    You really need to read the bible before making claims against it.
    and just stop believing every Muslim on every website that speaks against Christianity.

    I would also like to make this point.
    There is over 140 pages of preserved New Testament that dates back to 200 AD.
    It is word for word accurate to the NT scriptures we have today.
    These fragments of NT predate the codex over 200 years..
    But because it is not in it's entireity it is not considered a Bible.
    The Codex is looked upon the same way..
    though it is very old and well preserved,
    you will see that there are parts missing,
    some pieces in the OT and NT are either fragmented or the words are faded.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-11-2010 at 08:54 AM.

  10. #8
    Visiblegaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    First off, why would I make this thread if you didn't make any of these claims. I can personally go through every one of these threads, and find where you made the claims.
    If they are edited within this day by you,
    that really just incriminates you.

    Secondly..are you kidding me?
    I can show you in multiple passages where it describes his death.

    Like how the Roman soldier speared Christ,in the rib
    but only blood and water flowed,
    thus proving the prophecy that not a bone in his body would be broken..even in death.

    The Angel that came down from heaven to take Jesus's body, which a Roman soldier and both Mary's witnessed. The Angel told both Mary's To meet The RESURRECTED Jesus in Galilee, and they both witnessed him.

    You really need to read the bible before making claims against it.
    and just stop believing every Muslim on every website that speaks against Christianity.

    I would also like to make this point.
    There is over 140 pages of preserved New Testament that dates back to 200 AD.
    It is word for word accurate to the NT scriptures we have today.
    These fragments of NT predate the codex over 200 years..
    But because it is not in it's entireity it is not considered a Bible.
    The Codex is looked upon the same way..
    though it is very old and well preserved,
    you will see that there are parts missing,
    some pieces in the OT and NT are either fragmented or the words are faded.
    1- Go ahead bro look up where i said these qoutes, i wont edit a single post from now till next month, and we will see.

    2- When i said Jesus didn't die i didnt use the codex sinaiticus so fail there.

    3- i listen to people on the e-net? hah ok bro.

    4- prove this to me the bible isn't edited by man.

    =will be off for 3hrs=

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    :/ the codex says:

    1. Jesus is God's son.(in the text)
    -There isn't really another way to put it. What do you want the scripture to actually say?
    3. 58 this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded it to be given. Do you not know how crucifixtion works?(man my spelling is )

    4. Visible, why do you even make claims using the codex then? If you don't believe what it says, then why even bother to make claims using it?

    This is literally what you do:
    [Visible]Codex says jesus didn't die on the cross.
    [Ethereal]Yeah, it does, *cites codex*
    [Visible]Yeah but the Quran says he didn't.

    And then me: Well if the Quran says he didn't, why did you even use the codex?

    :/ Quran was made 500 years after Jesus died btw. So much for credibility.
    Get off this thread please nuff trolling.

    Quran wasn't "made" like the bible, it was sent down.

    Im in search of a bible which is in Aramaic and it will take a while but ill translate it to hebrew, and compare it with the bible, i will find many flaws.

    4th century codex sinaitucus
    5th century codex alexandrian [4got name] and in 1 century both are completely different. bible got HAxED :/
    Last edited by Visiblegaming; 11-11-2010 at 10:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    1- Go ahead bro look up where i said these qoutes, i wont edit a single post from now till next month, and we will see.

    4th century codex sinaitucus
    5th century codex alexandrian [4got name] and in 1 century both are completely different. bible got HAxED :/
    1. I will.
    2. It's called the codex Vaticanus,and again you're wrong.
    It's not completely different.

    Bottom line is this.
    Both the Bible, and Qur'ran are preserverd word.
    You telling me to prove that man didn't edit the Bible,
    is like me saying: "Prove to me that Gabriel gave Islam the Qur'ran."
    It isn't possible, we use mostly history,documentation, speculation, and blind faith.

    The only possible argument about the Bible being edited is
    the ommission of the apocrophya.
    These are better known as the Dead Sea Scrolls..
    Funny thing is these are OT scriptures that have been disputed.
    Some of the earliest Churches in Greece and Jerusalem discredited them as being non relevant to the word of God.
    There is even a story in the book of Tobit which describes a Jealous Demon that kills men that try to marry a human female that the Demon was in love with. First of all..it's no wonder many early churches deemed these apocrophya as heresy. God did not allow Satan or his army to Kill humans.
    He could do anything else, but that.
    There are many other things in a few books that were considered Pagan ritual. Like the Angel Raphael telling Tobit's son that to ward off Demon's he must burn fish eyes.

    These books stray so far from God's message, that it makes no sense to credit them. They very well may have been stories written by scribes, and have gotten mixed in with actual bilical scripture. We won't ever know,
    but it matters not for a Christian, since the New Testament is what we follow in the modern day.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-11-2010 at 01:24 PM.

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    Visiblegaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    1. I will.
    2. It's called the codex Vaticanus,and again you're wrong.
    It's not completely different.

    Bottom line is this.
    Both the Bible, and Qur'ran are preserverd word.
    You telling me to prove that man didn't edit the Bible,
    is like me saying: "Prove to me that Gabriel gave Islam the Qur'ran."
    It isn't possible, we use mostly history,documentation, speculation, and blind faith.

    The only possible argument about the Bible being edited is
    the ommission of the apocrophya.
    These are better known as the Dead Sea Scrolls..
    Funny thing is these are OT scriptures that have been disputed.
    Some of the earliest Churches in Greece and Jerusalem discredited them as being non relevant to the word of God.
    There is even a story in the book of Tobit which describes a Jealous Demon that kills men that try to marry a human female that the Demon was in love with. First of all..it's no wonder many early churches deemed these apocrophya as heresy. God did not allow Satan or his army to Kill humans.
    He could do anything else, but that.
    There are many other things in a few books that were considered Pagan ritual. Like the Angel Raphael telling Tobit's son that to ward off Demon's he must burn fish eyes.

    These books stray so far from God's message, that it makes no sense to credit them. They very well have been stories written by scribes, and have gotten mixed in with actual bilical scripture. We won't ever know,
    but it matters not for a Christian, since the New Testament is what we follow in the modern day.
    Thats nothing like gabriel sending the quran down, what is = to that is "prove the bible to be the one true word" you can't, why? because its faith. same thing with us.

    But tbh i really dont have time to dispute i gtg now and finish off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    Thats nothing like gabriel sending the quran down, what is = to that is "prove the bible to be the one true word" you can't, why? because its faith. same thing with us.

    But tbh i really dont have time to dispute i gtg now and finish off.
    Exactly. So stop focusing on trying to dispute Christianity,
    and worry about your own.
    If you think the Qur'ran is God's word, then fine.
    I'm not telling you to worship anything different.

    I also didn't start debating your own beliefs until you made all these

    "Qur'ran is right, Bible is wrong" threads.

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    Visiblegaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Exactly. So stop focusing on trying to dispute Christianity,
    and worry about your own.
    If you think the Qur'ran is God's word, then fine.
    I'm not telling you to worship anything different.

    I also didn't start debating your own beliefs until you made all these

    "Qur'ran is right, Bible is wrong" threads.
    link me up to this thread please, i must've forgotten about it?

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    it is very clear now

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    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    link me up to this thread please, i must've forgotten about it?
    Ok, well I went through a lot of these threads,
    and noticed that you didn't start Talking bad until people insulted Islam
    So I will give you a pass on some of the claims and stuff you said about the bible. Honestly there is quite a bit, and I don't feel like multi quoting.

    I do want to clear this up though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    Why the false claims against me?

    1- I said Jesus isn't God, i did not say the codex sinaiticus doesn't talk about "the son" because lots of prophets are called son of God in the codex.
    Actually, the only ones mentioned as "Sons of God"
    were Angels in both Old and NT.

    God actually considered Israel as a whole "The Son of God"
    But when referring to an individual, No one but Jesus was given this title.

    When we look at most Greek,
    Jesus is considered:"μονογενής, monogenēs" should be translated as "only begotten"

    In The Hebrew:
    "special son", "one-son-of-a-kind"

    Another thing I want to point out..
    Is that Muslims don't believe Christ was crucified..
    Yet..let me quote you again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    3- I said Jesus was not killed, Im a Muslim i believe he was crucified -.-, show me where it says he died, like king james version does.


    Care to explain that?
    Because Muslims don't believe Jesus was killed OR crucified.
    They believe he was raised to Heaven by the father..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    But tbh i really dont have time to dispute i gtg now and finish off.
    I really didn't need to read that.

    keep it in your pants man.


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