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  1. #1
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Crusades: The unbiased truth.

    (this is probably going to be a huge post,but I put a lot of thought and diligent study in..so I do hope people read it, whether Christian or Muslim)


    As a student of Theology, I can assure all of you religious bias will not get you good grades. When studying theology as a whole, focus is not placed upon one belief, or religion. When writing a thesis or essay on a certain subject, the majority of your studies must be focused on actual History and documentation.

    I am a Christian. Anyone that regularly occupies this section has knowledge of this. Since I am not writing a Thesis for school, I am going to provide a mix of real history and my own opinions or thoughts purely based on the facts.
    I am here to talk about the Crusades.
    There has been a huge stigma about these Crusades regarding Christians motivation and involvement.
    I am going to set the record straight about this. Over the years Christians have been labeled as Barbaric conquerors with the totalitarian goal of spreading an intolerant religion across the Middle East. My friends..this is not even close to the truth. Lets immerse ourselves in the reality of it now.

    Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Muhammad, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Muhammad was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.

    With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Muhammad's death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

    That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or blood thirsty knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

    Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely Hired help or maniacs who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders' expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.

    During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for P lunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.

    Urban II gave the Crusaders two goals, both of which would remain central to the eastern Crusades for centuries. The first was to rescue the Christians of the East. As his successor, Pope Innocent III, later wrote:

    "How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? ...Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?"

    The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. The word crusade is modern. Medieval Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:

    "Consider most dear sons, consider carefully that if any temporal king was thrown out of his domain and perhaps captured, would he not, when he was restored to his pristine liberty and the time had come for dispensing justice look on his vassals as unfaithful and traitors...unless they had committed not only their property but also their persons to the task of freeing him? ...And similarly will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood...condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?"

    It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders' task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion. Indeed, throughout the history of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, Muslim inhabitants far outnumbered the Catholics. It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.

    That is all for now.
    I am not offering a challenge, or debate..
    Though I will openly defend false claims in response to this post.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-12-2010 at 04:20 PM.

  2. #2
    Visiblegaming's Avatar
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    Holy shit, this wall of text makes the great wall of china look like a fence..Not sure if im bothered to read it all :P any way to sum it all up please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    (this is probably going to be a huge post,but I put a lot of thought and diligent study in..so I do hope people read it, whether Christian or Muslim)


    As a student of Theology, I can assure all of you religious bias will not get you good grades. When studying theology as a whole, focus is not placed upon one belief, or religion. When writing a thesis or essay on a certain subject, the majority of your studies must be focused on actual History and documentation.

    I am a Christian. Anyone that regularly occupies this section has knowledge of this. Since I am not writing a Thesis for school, I am going to provide a mix of real history and my own opinions or thoughts purely based on the facts.
    I am here to talk about the Crusades.
    There has been a huge stigma about these Crusades regarding Christians motivation and involvement.
    I am going to set the record straight about this. Over the years Christians have been labeled as Barbaric conquerors with the totalitarian goal of spreading an intolerant religion across the Middle East. My friends..this is not even close to the truth. Lets immerse ourselves in the reality of it now.

    Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Muhammad, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Muhammad was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.

    With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Muhammad's death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

    That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or blood thirsty knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

    Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually asserted that Crusaders were merely Hired help or maniacs who took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land. The Crusaders' expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a front for darker designs.

    During the past two decades, computer-assisted charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap. Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad for P lunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with nothing.

    Urban II gave the Crusaders two goals, both of which would remain central to the eastern Crusades for centuries. The first was to rescue the Christians of the East. As his successor, Pope Innocent III, later wrote:

    "How does a man love according to divine precept his neighbor as himself when, knowing that his Christian brothers in faith and in name are held by the perfidious Muslims in strict confinement and weighed down by the yoke of heaviest servitude, he does not devote himself to the task of freeing them? ...Is it by chance that you do not know that many thousands of Christians are bound in slavery and imprisoned by the Muslims, tortured with innumerable torments?"

    The second goal was the liberation of Jerusalem and the other places made holy by the life of Christ. The word crusade is modern. Medieval Crusaders saw themselves as pilgrims, performing acts of righteousness on their way to the Holy Sepulcher. The Crusade indulgence they received was canonically related to the pilgrimage indulgence. This goal was frequently described in feudal terms. When calling the Fifth Crusade in 1215, Innocent III wrote:

    "Consider most dear sons, consider carefully that if any temporal king was thrown out of his domain and perhaps captured, would he not, when he was restored to his pristine liberty and the time had come for dispensing justice look on his vassals as unfaithful and traitors...unless they had committed not only their property but also their persons to the task of freeing him? ...And similarly will not Jesus Christ, the king of kings and lord of lords, whose servant you cannot deny being, who joined your soul to your body, who redeemed you with the Precious Blood...condemn you for the vice of ingratitude and the crime of infidelity if you neglect to help Him?"

    It is often assumed that the central goal of the Crusades was forced conversion of the Muslim world. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the perspective of medieval Christians, Muslims were the enemies of Christ and His Church. It was the Crusaders' task to defeat and defend against them. That was all. Muslims who lived in Crusader-won territories were generally allowed to retain their property and livelihood, and always their religion. Indeed, throughout the history of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, Muslim inhabitants far outnumbered the Catholics. It was not until the 13th century that the Franciscans began conversion efforts among Muslims. But these were mostly unsuccessful and finally abandoned. In any case, such efforts were by peaceful persuasion, not the threat of violence.

    That is all for now.
    I am not offering a challenge, or debate..
    Though I will openly defend false claims in response to this post.
    Got through reading the first paragraph and already a joke.

    RED TEXT = How much times does the Bible use the word sword? and how much times does the Quran use it?

    Bible uses the word sword 200+ times, and Quran NEVER mentions the word sword. HUGE HUGE HUGE FAIL.
    -------------------------------------

    BLUE TEXT = In traditional Islam, Christian and Jews are seen as brothers who submit to God. Prophet mohammed never waged war, did he? if he did prove this to me. He NEVER waged war, he fighted against war. retaliation.

    He was treated like Jesus got treated when Jesus claimed to be a prophet. Prophet Mohammed was stoned by pagans and Christians and Jews, but he kept going without fighting. he spread the word of God.

    GREEN LIME TEXT = Wrong, Islam was advancing in Palestine, Sryia and Egypt In power and wealth, and this caused Pope Urban II to let go of the leash and set out his First crusade on Islam because of the fast advancement and the population of Muslims was growing rapidly.

    All Christians and Catholics waged war on Islam, and the main attack on Islam was Jerusalem.

    Islam had "conquered" Jerusalem not by force, but by advancement of population, and the Pope was smart, using this as an advantage to bring back what once was a Christian populated city, he poisoned the crusades brains to turn on Islam, and naming Muslims as Pagans.

    The first crusade was a surprise attack, dont you think if Islam invaded Islam would have seen it coming?


    PURPLE TEXT = Crusade were the defence? crusades where the first to let down blood shed, as Islam grew in these cities never was there a civil war, but so to speak with Christians and catholics civil war wasn't something new.

    Crusade didn't come to aid "brother and sister" crusade came to rid the world of there so called "pagans" Islam growing in there region was a threat to them, and they didn't even think twice.

    The reason Islam one was because of brother hood, Muslims around the world travelled to help the Muslims. as did the Crusades, though the crusades died out fast because they wered used to the heat in the region of the world.

    The pope heard of the mass of death and took bigger actions thinking it was Muslims who killed them.

    [COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]PINK TEXT[/COLOR] = Talk to me, how much cities did the crusade invade whilst getting to Jerusalem, the crusades invaded over 4 different cities including Constantinople.

    What happened in 1347 when constantinople was overtaken by crusades? THE BLACK DEATH!, God cursed these people with the black death killing most there men, the crusade invaded for the wealth and came out with nothing!

    at 1453 turks regained control over the city.

    The uniqueness of this is, how the Muslims managed to destroy most the crusades who were invading Jerusalem.

    The Muslims used there bows as Human catapults lunging arrows MILES far out, as the Crusades said it [COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]"The Mass of arrows was like a shade under the sunrise" [/COLOR] The amount of arrows causing the sunlight to go off? pretty much skill.

    The Crusade attacked a peaceful city on there way to Jerusalem killing the King, and then invading the premiss and killing all WOMEN and CHILDREN! And this is when salahideen and Richard the so called "lion heart" came into the battle.

    The Muslim men said "Salahideen a heart of Gold, and as strong as a lion" salahideen was seen to have fighted off 4men at the same time at the war, but. Richard the lion heart was said the same thing.

    The negotiation:

    Salahideen and richard negotiated with a stoppage of the war, but what was the deal?

    Salahideen claimed Jerusalem as his, and Richard the lion heart got to keep the cities the crusade invaded on there way to Jerusalem. but why? i thought its a holy city to them?

    Richard died later on from a arrow wound injury, and salahideen took a natural death.

    ===================================
    took me a while, any grammar mistakes or historical mistakes ignore it, freaking 11:30pm and im tired..been up all night.
    Last edited by Visiblegaming; 11-12-2010 at 05:17 PM.

  3. #3
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    Holy shit, this wall of text makes the great wall of china look like a fence..Not sure if im bothered to read it all :P any way to sum it all up please?



    Got through reading the first paragraph and already a joke.

    RED TEXT = How much times does the Bible use the word sword? and how much times does the Quran use it?

    Bible uses the word sword 200+ times, and Quran NEVER mentions the word sword. HUGE HUGE HUGE FAIL.
    -------------------------------------

    BLUE TEXT = In traditional Islam, Christian and Jews are seen as brothers who submit to God. Prophet mohammed never waged war, did he? if he did prove this to me. He NEVER waged war, he fighted against war. retaliation.

    He was treated like Jesus got treated when Jesus claimed to be a prophet. Prophet Mohammed was stoned by pagans and Christians and Jews, but he kept going without fighting. he spread the word of God.

    GREEN LIME TEXT = Wrong, Islam was advancing in Palestine, Sryia and Egypt In power and wealth, and this caused Pope Urban II to let go of the leash and set out his First crusade on Islam because of the fast advancement and the population of Muslims was growing rapidly.

    All Christians and Catholics waged war on Islam, and the main attack on Islam was Jerusalem.

    Islam had "conquered" Jerusalem not by force, but by advancement of population, and the Pope was smart, using this as an advantage to bring back what once was a Christian populated city, he poisoned the crusades brains to turn on Islam, and naming Muslims as Pagans.

    The first crusade was a surprise attack, dont you think if Islam invaded Islam would have seen it coming?


    PURPLE TEXT = Crusade were the defence? crusades where the first to let down blood shed, as Islam grew in these cities never was there a civil war, but so to speak with Christians and catholics civil war wasn't something new.

    Crusade didn't come to aid "brother and sister" crusade came to rid the world of there so called "pagans" Islam growing in there region was a threat to them, and they didn't even think twice.

    The reason Islam one was because of brother hood, Muslims around the world travelled to help the Muslims. as did the Crusades, though the crusades died out fast because they wered used to the heat in the region of the world.

    The pope heard of the mass of death and took bigger actions thinking it was Muslims who killed them.

    [COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]PINK TEXT[/COLOR] = Talk to me, how much cities did the crusade invade whilst getting to Jerusalem, the crusades invaded over 4 different cities including Constantinople.

    What happened in 1347 when constantinople was overtaken by crusades? THE BLACK DEATH!, God cursed these people with the black death killing most there men, the crusade invaded for the wealth and came out with nothing!

    at 1453 turks regained control over the city.

    The uniqueness of this is, how the Muslims managed to destroy most the crusades who were invading Jerusalem.

    The Muslims used there bows as Human catapults lunging arrows MILES far out, as the Crusades said it [COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]"The Mass of arrows was like a shade under the sunrise" [/COLOR] The amount of arrows causing the sunlight to go off? pretty much skill.

    The Crusade attacked a peaceful city on there way to Jerusalem killing the King, and then invading the premiss and killing all WOMEN and CHILDREN! And this is when salahideen and Richard the so called "lion heart" came into the battle.

    The Muslim men said "Salahideen a heart of Gold, and as strong as a lion" salahideen was seen to have fighted off 4men at the same time at the war, but. Richard the lion heart was said the same thing.

    The negotiation:

    Salahideen and richard negotiated with a stoppage of the war, but what was the deal?

    Salahideen claimed Jerusalem as his, and Richard the lion heart got to keep the cities the crusade invaded on there way to Jerusalem. but why? i thought its a holy city to them?

    Richard died later on from a arrow wound injury, and salahideen took a natural death.

    ===================================
    took me a while, any grammar mistakes or historical mistakes ignore it, freaking 11:30pm and im tired..been up all night.
    How many times did Jesus strike a head from a neck?
    How many times did Muhammed? 600- or 900?
    How deep was the hole that was dug man?
    maybe you can elaborate.
    Your whole reply is full of lies and inaccurate historical depiction.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-12-2010 at 05:38 PM.

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    Visiblegaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    How many times did Jesus strike a head from a neck?
    How many times did Muhammed? 600- or 900?
    How deep was the hole that was dug man?
    maybe you can elaborate.
    Your whole reply is full of lies and inaccurate historical depiction.
    lol, how about correct me smart arce?

    I believe Jesus is a prophet, so i dont understand how your using this on me.

    And tell me, when Prophet PBUH was in a holy war, what are you meant to do in a holy war? sit in a bed like a bride all day long? your think, i think i thought too much of you, but judging from these questions i see you dont have the knowledge to answer it your self?

    Holy war = ?

    And how deep was what hole?

  5. #5
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    Religion played a minor role in most of the crusades. The greater role religion played was in the initial ones (stopping Islam from spreading), but later the crusades mainly came to be due to economical reasons which were hidden under the guise of some religious conflict.

    So yeah, thanks for pointing out the "evil Muslims", but lets go on to actually list the main reasons, shall we?

  6. #6
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    lol, how about correct me smart arce?

    I believe Jesus is a prophet, so i dont understand how your using this on me.

    And tell me, when Prophet PBUH was in a holy war, what are you meant to do in a holy war? sit in a bed like a bride all day long? your think, i think i thought too much of you, but judging from these questions i see you dont have the knowledge to answer it your self?

    Holy war = ?

    And how deep was what hole?
    Let me make this point bro..

    So according to both books, Qur'ran and Bible,
    Jesus Christ, my lord, my savior, is going to come from a cloud,
    and pass judgment upon the earth..
    yet Allah, through the prophet Muhammed advocated war against Christians, Jews, and any unbeliever that inhabits the land that they decide to Conquer,
    for it is against Islamic law for them to have their own republic.
    So basically, the only way to establish Islam is to FORCE IT.

    So Islam loved Christ so much, that they kill his followers?
    How much sense does this make?
    The fact that Islam believes of the Virgin birth,
    Believes Christ to be a true Prophet,
    believes that Christ has preformed miracles while he walked the earth..

    Can you not see?
    If Gabriel ever visited Muhammed..
    the whole Qur'ran is just a test.
    Or..that was not Gabriel.

    OR. Muhammed was not a prophet at all,
    but one of the earliest totalitarian politicians.

    So because the Bible used the word sword..
    this means The Qur'ran has no violence?

    The Muslims are commanded to wage an everlasting war against the unbelievers and are assured victory in the struggle. Surely, the Marxist social philosophy is an extension of the Koranic doctrine. To realize the significance of this statement, one ought to read the following:

    "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads." (Sura 47, Verse 4)

    Sura 47 [Muhammad]:3 says “When you encounter the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike off their heads until you have crushed them completely; then bind the [surviving] prisoners tightly.”

    Sura 8:12 states “I will cast dread into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike off their heads, then, and strike off all of their fingertips.”

    1. On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. (The Cow: 161 )

    2. Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. ( The Cow: 15 )

    3. The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful, who will not believe. (Spoils of War: 55)

    4. Oh ye who believe! the non-Muslims are unclean. (Repentance:17)

    5. Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)

    Islam, in fact, is a perpetual declaration of war against all those, who do not believe in Muhammad. This war is not confined to words but it is really brutish, barbaric and bewildering. It makes society a hot bed of mutual hatred based on discrimination of Momin (Muslim) and Kafir (non-Muslim). Thus, it ignites the flame of eternal conflict far more dangerous, debilitating and devastating than Karl-Marx could ever visualize: "They (unbelievers) are Satan's party they are the losers.... Those (the Muslims) are God's party....they are the prosperers." (LVIII The Disputer: 20)

    The Christians call Christ the son of Allah …. Allah’s curse be on them (Sura 9:30)

    Excerpt K 5:033
    Set 21, Count 54 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned.

    Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (At-Taubah 9:5)


    Oo wow so you don't use the word sword..
    So I guess we just assume you lop heads off with what?
    Your hands?

    The second to last verse of the Qur'ran is this:
    "Oh wait..the last two verses of the Qur'an have been debated for..
    hmm...EVER. Yet you say your book is not corrupt?

    K.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-12-2010 at 06:47 PM.

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    Visiblegaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Let me make this point bro..

    So according to both books, Qur'ran and Bible,
    Jesus Christ, my lord, my savior, is going to come from a cloud,
    and pass judgment upon the earth..
    yet Allah, through the prophet Muhammed advocated war against Christians, Jews, and any unbeliever that inhabits the land that they decide to Conquer,
    for it is against Islamic law for them to have their own republic.
    So basically, the only way to establish Islam is to FORCE IT.

    So Islam loved Christ so much, that they kill his followers?
    How much sense does this make?
    The fact that Islam believes of the Virgin birth,
    Believes Christ to be a true Prophet,
    believes that Christ has preformed miracles while he walked the earth..


    Can you not see?
    If Gabriel ever visited Muhammed..
    the whole Qur'ran is just a test.
    Or..that was not Gabriel.

    OR. Muhammed was not a prophet at all,
    but one of the earliest totalitarian politicians.

    So because the Bible used the word sword..
    this means The Qur'ran has no violence?

    The Muslims are commanded to wage an everlasting war against the unbelievers and are assured victory in the struggle. Surely, the Marxist social philosophy is an extension of the Koranic doctrine. To realize the significance of this statement, one ought to read the following:

    "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads." (Sura 47, Verse 4)

    Sura 47 [Muhammad]:3 says “When you encounter the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike off their heads until you have crushed them completely; then bind the [surviving] prisoners tightly.”

    Sura 8:12 states “I will cast dread into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike off their heads, then, and strike off all of their fingertips.”

    1. On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. (The Cow: 161 )

    2. Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. ( The Cow: 15 )

    3. The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful, who will not believe. (Spoils of War: 55)

    4. Oh ye who believe! the non-Muslims are unclean. (Repentance:17)

    5. Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)

    Islam, in fact, is a perpetual declaration of war against all those, who do not believe in Muhammad. This war is not confined to words but it is really brutish, barbaric and bewildering. It makes society a hot bed of mutual hatred based on discrimination of Momin (Muslim) and Kafir (non-Muslim). Thus, it ignites the flame of eternal conflict far more dangerous, debilitating and devastating than Karl-Marx could ever visualize: "They (unbelievers) are Satan's party they are the losers.... Those (the Muslims) are God's party....they are the prosperers." (LVIII The Disputer: 20)

    The Christians call Christ the son of Allah …. Allah’s curse be on them (Sura 9:30)

    Excerpt K 5:033
    Set 21, Count 54 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned.

    Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (At-Taubah 9:5)


    Oo wow so you don't use the word sword..
    So I guess we just assume you lop heads off with what?
    Your hands?

    The second to last verse of the Qur'ran is this:
    "Oh wait..the last two verses of the Qur'an have been debated for..
    hmm...EVER. Yet you say your book is not corrupt?


    K.
    I really hope Coeus is watching this because, i can show him how deceiving you are, your a disappointment to Christians.

    BLUE TEXT =
    [2.190]. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of God, but do not transgress, for God does not love transgressors.

    See how this child lies? this verse tells us to retaliate not kill them whenever we see them. it tells us to kill in war, and to stop when they stop.

    [8:61] But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards
    peace, and trust in God: for He is One that hears and knows (all things).


    RED TEXT =
    [47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

    See how he cuts out the rest of the verse! see how he trys to output harsh verses when infact it says something a whole different? LIER dont call your self a christian because it may offend half the people here.

    Green =

    8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

    8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

    These verses are talking about the WAR, and yet see how you crop the verse in half?

    Purple =

    123. O ye who believe! Fight The Unbelievers who gird you about, And let them find firmness In you: and know that God Is with those who fear Him.

    Once again cropped from a verse, why didn't you qoute the whole verse? afraid of the truth?

    Orange =

    you talk, with no proof. Stay silent.


    Christians idolise a man, a prophet, whom name is Jesus. why? because of the miracles he did with the FINGER OF GOD and yet you pray to him? if God wanted prayer then god would need it directed at him, not at /his messenger!

    Mark 12:29 "Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord."
    John 14:28 "My father is greater than I."
    Luke 11:20 "I with the finger of God cast out devil"

    And what? you still pray to Jesus? He tells us God is greater than him so how in the world can he be part of a trinity? 3 in 1, when he tells us God is 1! not 3 in 1!
    ....your soul is lost, no use saving it.
    Last edited by Visiblegaming; 11-12-2010 at 07:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    I really hope Coeus is watching this because, i can show him how deceiving you are, your a disappointment to Christians.

    BLUE TEXT =
    [2.190]. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of God, but do not transgress, for God does not love transgressors.

    See how this child lies? this verse tells us to retaliate not kill them whenever we see them. it tells us to kill in war, and to stop when they stop.

    [8:61] But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards
    peace, and trust in God: for He is One that hears and knows (all things).


    RED TEXT =
    [47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

    See how he cuts out the rest of the verse! see how he trys to output harsh verses when infact it says something a whole different? LIER dont call your self a christian because it may offend half the people here.

    Green =

    8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

    8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

    These verses are talking about the WAR, and yet see how you crop the verse in half?

    Purple =

    123. O ye who believe! Fight The Unbelievers who gird you about, And let them find firmness In you: and know that God Is with those who fear Him.

    Once again cropped from a verse, why didn't you qoute the whole verse? afraid of the truth?

    Orange =

    you talk, with no proof. Stay silent.


    Christians idolise a man, a prophet, whom name is Jesus. why? because of the miracles he did with the FINGER OF GOD and yet you pray to him? if God wanted prayer then god would need it directed at him, not at /his messenger!

    Mark 12:29 "Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord."
    John 14:28 "My father is greater than I."
    Luke 11:20 "I with the finger of God cast out devil"

    And what? you still pray to Jesus? He tells us God is greater than him so how in the world can he be part of a trinity? 3 in 1, when he tells us God is 1! not 3 in 1!
    ....your soul is lost, no use saving it.

    My soul is in the hands of God my friend.
    Even if you tell me my soul is lost,
    this only glorifies what is right.

    Here is the problem. Even if the Qu'ran was sent from Gabriel
    He only sent one. This means Many scribes were involved in circulating the book.
    You telling me that your book is not corrupted, is perfect,
    and is direct from God is just not even plausible.
    Not only because Gabriel would not come to Palestinians in the first place,
    But because no matter how hard you deny it,
    Man had a hand in reproducing your book.
    Too many hands in the soup.
    Now. Let me introduce you to the fall.

    David in the Old testament,
    The champion of the God of Israel
    Battled a GIANT fellow from Philistine named Goliath.
    If you were a good boy, and did your homework,
    You would know that Palestine and Philistine are the same.

    The account of the battle between David and Goliath is given in 1 Samuel, chapter 17.[2] Saul and the Israelites are facing the Philistines at the Valley of Elah. Twice a day for forty days, Goliath, the champion of the Philistines, comes out between the lines and challenges the Israelites to send out a champion of their own to decide the outcome in single combat. However, Saul and all the other Israelites are afraid of him. By chance, David is present, having brought food for his elder brothers. Told that Saul has promised to reward any man who defeats Goliath, David accepts the challenge. Saul reluctantly agrees and offers his armor, which David declines, taking only his sling and five stones chosen in a brook.

    David hurls a stone from his sling with all his might,and hits Goliath in the center of his forehead. The Philistine falls on his face to the ground, David takes Goliath’s sword and cuts off his head. The Philistines flee and are pursued by the Israelites “as far as Gath and the gates of Ekron.” David puts the armor of Goliath in his own tent and takes the head to Jerusalem, and Saul sends Abner to bring David to him. The king asks whose son he is, and David answers, ‘I am the son of your servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.’”


    Goliath as explained in The Bible..
    (YES EVEN THE CODEX SINAITICUS)

    Is "6 cubits and a span"
    This means Goliath was over 9 feet tall.

    Now, as explained above in the accounts of the OT,
    David beheads Goliath.
    This is the first beheading documented.

    Is it just a coincidence that Muslims choose this as their main way to execute someone?

    NO. They are still butthurt that a Jew destroyed their mightiest champion.

    Now..let's talk about the Nephalim.

    Genesis 6:1-4, immediately before the Ark was built:

    1. When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
    2. the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
    3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
    4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

    The second is Numbers 13:32-33, where the Hebrew spies report that they have seen fearsome giants in Canaan:

    32. And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size.
    33. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

    (Let me quote a book from the Vaticanus.. very interesting now that I think about it.1600 years ago.. remember that argument? )

    The book of Jubilees:
    And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it...
    —[26]

    When we implicate this book into the Old testament,
    this clearly states that God didn't kill all of the Giants.
    Which would leave 10% left to tempt his followers.
    When we go back to the Size of Goliath,
    and lament upon the fact that Nephalim were offspring of fallen Angels,
    and given the attributes of Giants, and also..evil..
    we can clearly link Goliath with being a Nephalim.


    Conclusion.

    Fallen Angel:
    Satan
    His army.

    Nephalim:
    product of Fallen Angel and human breeding.

    Gabriel in the Qur'an:
    Satan disguised, possibly preserving his bloodline.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-12-2010 at 08:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    Holy shit, this wall of text makes the great wall of china look like a fence..Not sure if im bothered to read it all :P any way to sum it all up please?



    Got through reading the first paragraph and already a joke.

    RED TEXT = How much times does the Bible use the word sword? and how much times does the Quran use it?

    Bible uses the word sword 200+ times, and Quran NEVER mentions the word sword. HUGE HUGE HUGE FAIL.
    -------------------------------------

    BLUE TEXT = In traditional Islam, Christian and Jews are seen as brothers who submit to God. Prophet mohammed never waged war, did he? if he did prove this to me. He NEVER waged war, he fighted against war. retaliation.

    He was treated like Jesus got treated when Jesus claimed to be a prophet. Prophet Mohammed was stoned by pagans and Christians and Jews, but he kept going without fighting. he spread the word of God.

    GREEN LIME TEXT = Wrong, Islam was advancing in Palestine, Sryia and Egypt In power and wealth, and this caused Pope Urban II to let go of the leash and set out his First crusade on Islam because of the fast advancement and the population of Muslims was growing rapidly.

    All Christians and Catholics waged war on Islam, and the main attack on Islam was Jerusalem.

    Islam had "conquered" Jerusalem not by force, but by advancement of population, and the Pope was smart, using this as an advantage to bring back what once was a Christian populated city, he poisoned the crusades brains to turn on Islam, and naming Muslims as Pagans.

    The first crusade was a surprise attack, dont you think if Islam invaded Islam would have seen it coming?


    PURPLE TEXT = Crusade were the defence? crusades where the first to let down blood shed, as Islam grew in these cities never was there a civil war, but so to speak with Christians and catholics civil war wasn't something new.

    Crusade didn't come to aid "brother and sister" crusade came to rid the world of there so called "pagans" Islam growing in there region was a threat to them, and they didn't even think twice.

    The reason Islam one was because of brother hood, Muslims around the world travelled to help the Muslims. as did the Crusades, though the crusades died out fast because they wered used to the heat in the region of the world.

    The pope heard of the mass of death and took bigger actions thinking it was Muslims who killed them.

    The Muslims used there bows as Human catapults lunging arrows MILES far out, as the Crusades said it [COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]"The Mass of arrows was like a shade under the sunrise" The amount of arrows causing the sunlight to go off? pretty much skill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    Let me just own you, thanks in advance.
    -responding to visible's first post.

    RED TEXT: Doesn't matter what the quran says, it was born through the sword. This text you highlighted doesn't even talk about the beliefs of Muslims.

    Blue text: Entering in war with an army, no matter what the cause, is waging war.

    Green text: Actually, Islam advanced through force. The persian empire ring a bell?
    "The first crusade was a surprise attack, dont you think if Islam invaded Islam would have seen it coming?"(visible)
    -I don't know, if Islam invaded Islam, that is a tough question.

    Purple text: You get confused pretty easily. They were a "religious" defense. As in a defense against turning to Islam. Yes they attacked, we all know this, and can all agree on that. But the point was that to save the old christian world, it is defense.

    STUPID RED TEXT: Ok retard let me explain this.
    1. You can't launch an arrow miles.
    2. How do you launch a arrow with a human catapult?
    3. Yeah, if you have a big army, with any decent amount of archers, you can block out the sun.(watch 300).
    4. Its not skill dumb shit. Thats like saying the use of a machine gun is skill.[/COLOR]


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    Ethereal.you're forgetting something.the Catholic assholes backstabbed the Byzantines in 1204,and had previously conquered the island of Cyprus.
    and there was a schism a century and a half before.Catholics were not really that friendly with the Byzantines :P
    apart from that you're absolutely correct,and visible is trying to gain some land back by repeating the same things.
    ok bible mentions the word sword a lot,mostly at the old testament.it mentions it!The Muslims actually used it.

    PS : Ethereal is a child? :O He's studying theology and he knows a thing or two about the Greek language.
    If he's a child,what are you?a fetus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite42 View Post
    I am the sperm that won
    Quote Originally Posted by Paroxysm View Post
    Surprisingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    whoever made this thread... you just got owned by Casavir...
    Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

    50% Spartan,50% Macedonian.100% Greek

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    I really hope Coeus is watching this because, i can show him how deceiving you are, your a disappointment to Christians.

    BLUE TEXT =
    [2.190]. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of God, but do not transgress, for God does not love transgressors.

    See how this child lies? this verse tells us to retaliate not kill them whenever we see them. it tells us to kill in war, and to stop when they stop.

    [8:61] But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards
    peace, and trust in God: for He is One that hears and knows (all things).


    RED TEXT =
    [47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

    See how he cuts out the rest of the verse! see how he trys to output harsh verses when infact it says something a whole different? LIER dont call your self a christian because it may offend half the people here.

    Green =

    8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

    8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

    These verses are talking about the WAR, and yet see how you crop the verse in half?

    Purple =

    123. O ye who believe! Fight The Unbelievers who gird you about, And let them find firmness In you: and know that God Is with those who fear Him.

    Once again cropped from a verse, why didn't you qoute the whole verse? afraid of the truth?

    Orange =

    you talk, with no proof. Stay silent.


    Christians idolise a man, a prophet, whom name is Jesus. why? because of the miracles he did with the FINGER OF GOD and yet you pray to him? if God wanted prayer then god would need it directed at him, not at /his messenger!

    Mark 12:29 "Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord."
    John 14:28 "My father is greater than I."
    Luke 11:20 "I with the finger of God cast out devil"

    And what? you still pray to Jesus? He tells us God is greater than him so how in the world can he be part of a trinity? 3 in 1, when he tells us God is 1! not 3 in 1!
    ....your soul is lost, no use saving it.
    Hahaha ethereal you aint escaping that easy, explain to me this.

    Why did you mislead qouting this?
    __________________________
    Answer my question, believe me dont try to escape it, ill just keep qouting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    Hahaha ethereal you aint escaping that easy, explain to me this.

    Why did you mislead qouting this?
    __________________________
    Answer my question, believe me dont try to escape it, ill just keep qouting it.
    Your last question is like saying how can the USA be one country, when there are 50 in 1?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Visiblegaming View Post
    Hahaha ethereal you aint escaping that easy, explain to me this.

    Why did you mislead qouting this?
    __________________________
    Answer my question, believe me dont try to escape it, ill just keep qouting it.
    Because you pick and choose which reader to quote from bro.

    That's why I can tell you google half of your responses to me.

    the Qur'an has been passed down to us from men called "the Readers". They were famous reciters of the Qur'an in the early centuries of Islam. The way these men recited the Qur'an was formerly recorded in textual form by other men called the "Transmitters". There are in fact more Readers and Transmitters than those listed below..

    Nafi` (from Medina; d. 169/785)
    Ibn Kathir (from Mecca; d. 119/737)
    Abu `Amr al-`Ala' (from Damascus; d. 153/770)
    Ibn `Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)
    Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)
    al-Qisa'i (from Kufah; d. 189/804)
    Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)
    (Cyril Glassé, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 324, bold added)


    Yeah you continue to insist that all Qur'an's are the same..
    unaltered by man, yet I have read with my own eyes..
    alterations.



    the number of red coded differences in the margin it is possible to learn how many differences there are between the Hafs and Warsh versions of the Qur'an. When this is done there are found to be 1354 differences.




    I am often told by Muslims that the differences between these Qur'ans are only a matter of dialect, accent or pronunciation, and that they do not have any effect on the meaning at all. However this is clearly not the case. The examples of the differences given earlier show that the differences are far more than dialect, accent or pronunciation. The differences change the subject of the sentence, whether the verb is active or passive or whether it is singular or plural. These differences do affect the meaning.

    Subhii al-Saalih[3] is an Islamic scholar in this area. He summarizes the differences into seven categories.

    Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab).
    Differences in consonants.
    Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.
    Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.
    Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.
    Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.
    Differences due to dialectical peculiarities.
    There is also the difference in the status of the Basmalah.


    This makes perfect sense..
    How lately there has been this "peace" movement with many Muslims in the west,Yet in the days of old true followers of Islam were simply following what was written. This doesn't include tolerance, I'll tell you that much.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 11-13-2010 at 08:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Because you pick and choose which reader to quote from bro.

    That's why I can tell you google half of your responses to me.

    the Qur'an has been passed down to us from men called "the Readers". They were famous reciters of the Qur'an in the early centuries of Islam. The way these men recited the Qur'an was formerly recorded in textual form by other men called the "Transmitters". There are in fact more Readers and Transmitters than those listed below..

    Nafi` (from Medina; d. 169/785)
    Ibn Kathir (from Mecca; d. 119/737)
    Abu `Amr al-`Ala' (from Damascus; d. 153/770)
    Ibn `Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)
    Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)
    al-Qisa'i (from Kufah; d. 189/804)
    Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)
    (Cyril Glassé, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 324, bold added)


    Yeah you continue to insist that all Qur'an's are the same..
    unaltered by man, yet I have read with my own eyes..
    alterations.



    the number of red coded differences in the margin it is possible to learn how many differences there are between the Hafs and Warsh versions of the Qur'an. When this is done there are found to be 1354 differences.




    I am often told by Muslims that the differences between these Qur'ans are only a matter of dialect, accent or pronunciation, and that they do not have any effect on the meaning at all. However this is clearly not the case. The examples of the differences given earlier show that the differences are far more than dialect, accent or pronunciation. The differences change the subject of the sentence, whether the verb is active or passive or whether it is singular or plural. These differences do affect the meaning.

    Subhii al-Saalih[3] is an Islamic scholar in this area. He summarizes the differences into seven categories.

    Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab).
    Differences in consonants.
    Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.
    Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.
    Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.
    Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.
    Differences due to dialectical peculiarities.
    There is also the difference in the status of the Basmalah.


    This makes perfect sense..
    How lately there has been this "peace" movement with many Muslims in the west,Yet in the days of old true followers of Islam were simply following what was written. This doesn't include tolerance, I'll tell you that much.
    1- you didn't answer my freaking question.

    2- Hafs and warsh are the same. its Just different arabic translations, not "versions" like the bible has.

    e.g

    HAFS = "yaquula" = he says/he said.
    WARSH = "yaquulu" = he says/he said.

    __

    HAFS = "ataytukum" = we gave to you/i gave to you.
    WARSH = "ataynukum" = we gave to you/i gave to you.

    See the difference? its the translation, words with same meaning giving it the same thing.

    Unlike the bible where 1 qoute can differ another qoute, the quran doesn't do this.

    HAFS and WARSH are same languages with different accent, one from medina and other from mekkah

    _________

    Theres 4 different main Qurans:

    Hafs
    Warsh
    Al-Duri
    Qalun

    But guess what. there not different at all, there Different arabic translations.

    (Example)
    Moroccan arabic is different then arabian arabic, which is different then tunisian arabic.

    But these Qurans are different arabic translations for these different arabic languages.

    NOT DIFFERENT VERSIONS LIKE THE BIBLE.


    ANSWER THE QUESTION I QOUTED ABOVE! why make lies on the qoutes you make? afraid of the truth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab).
    Differences in consonants.
    Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.
    Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.
    Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.
    Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.
    Differences due to dialectical peculiarities.
    There is also the difference in the status of the Basmalah.
    What about that, Visible?

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