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    Jesus in Islam

    I don't understand this:

    Jesus died/went to heaven lets say around 10AD.

    Christianity spread, the romans eventually adopted it, and they waged several wars with the cross as their flag.

    Around 500-600AD Muhammed "receives the word of god" and says Jesus didn't die, that he was a prophet, and that he just went straight to heaven.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Ok so supposedly God let people believe false reports for hundreds of years, have arguably the strongest empire adopt it as their main religion, and have to this day it be the main religion of the world.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    So I just have to ask:

    What motive do you possibly think God would have putting out new information about a guy 500 years later? That its credibility wouldn't be questioned?


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    yeah...you got a point.
    But their logic is that he continues the work of jesus...I think.haven't read all of quran,a 10% only,reading dune and hellenistic period history lately :P
    Also,I don't think you should have Romans as an example
    they killed them for 3 centuries before adopting it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    I don't understand this:

    Jesus died/went to heaven lets say around 10AD.

    Christianity spread, the romans eventually adopted it, and they waged several wars with the cross as their flag.

    Around 500-600AD Muhammed "receives the word of god" and says Jesus didn't die, that he was a prophet, and that he just went straight to heaven.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Ok so supposedly God let people believe false reports for hundreds of years, have arguably the strongest empire adopt it as their main religion, and have to this day it be the main religion of the world.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    So I just have to ask:

    What motive do you possibly think God would have putting out new information about a guy 500 years later? That its credibility wouldn't be questioned?
    Oxford Dictionaries:
    crucifies, crucifying, crucified
    "put (someone) to death by nailing or binding them to a cross"
    So for a person to be crucified he should die on the cross, if he does NOT die he is NOT crucified.

    resurrection
    "the act or instance of rising from the dead"
    For Christ to be resurrected he has to die if he doesn't die he can't be resurrected.

    According to Jesus pbuh the way for a person to obtain salvation is by keeping the law and the commandments.

    MATTHEW 19:16-17:
    16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
    17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

    According to Paul he nails the law and the commandments to the cross.

    COLOSSIANS 2:14
    14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

    And Paul says that salvation can be obtained by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus pbuh. And he says.

    1st BK. CORINTHIANS 15:14
    14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

    Paul says
    1st BK. CORINTHIANS 15:42-44
    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    So according to Paul if someone is resurrected their body is spiritualised for there is a natural physical body and a spiritual body. And the same is said by Jesus pbuh.

    LUKE 20:27-36
    27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?”
    34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    Resurrected bodies will be spiritualised according to Jesus pbuh and Paul says that.

    And there is not a single verse in any of the Gospels which mention Jesus pbuh was resurrected.

    Jesus pbuh enters the upper room and wishes shaloam to the disciples which means peace unto you.

    LUKE 24:36
    36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
    37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.

    The disciples thought Jesus pbuh was a spirit, but why? Did he look like a spirit? No he didn't, so why did they think this. It is because they HEARED that their master Jesus pbuh was put on the cross. They had learned that he had died and was burried. There were not eyewitnessess. Because it's stated in the bible.

    MARK 14:50
    50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.

    In the most crucial time when he needed them the most, they fled. Therefore they thought that he was a spirit because they had HEARED that he had died. But Jesus pbuh tells them he is not in the following verses.

    LUKE 24:39-40
    39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
    40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

    He tells them why are you afraid it's me handle me and see. Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones. Was he trying to prove that he was resurrected? That he was now a spirit? He was trying to prove that was not a spirit, that he was not resurrected.

    LUKE 24:41-42
    41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,

    Now they are happy that their master is alive, physical with flesh and bones in front of them. It says still they did not believe, so to confirm that he was alive so that they would believe him, he asks them if they have anything to eat. They gave him a broiled fish to eat, so he ate it. To prove what, that he was a spirit, that he was resurrected? To prove that he was a physical body, he ate and chewed in front of them to prove that he was not a spirit but that he was flesh and bones a physicial body.

    JOHN 20:1
    1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

    It was the first day of the week meaning that it was a sunday. She goes to the tomb, now why would she go to the tomb on the third day if Jesus pbuh was supossed to be dead?

    MARK 16:1
    1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.

    So she goes to the tomb of Jesus pbuh to massage his body. But jews never massage dead bodies on the third day. Neither do christians or muslims massage dead bodies on the third day. So why does she go to the tomb to massage the dead body on the third day?
    Because when she saw Jesus pbuh being removed from the cross she might have seen some life left in him. But of course she isn't going to say: HE'S ALIVE! Because then they would kill him for sure. Seeing certain life left in the lame body of Jesus pbuh she comes back on the third day after the sabbat day to look for a live Jesus pbuh.

    JOHN 20:1
    1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

    MARK 16:4
    4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.

    She finds that the stone has been removed and even the winding sheets were unwound and placed in a pile. Why should the stone be removed? And why should the winding sheets me unwound and piled up. If Jesus pbuh was resurrected as a spiritual body, does a spirit require a stone to be removed to go through the entrance? Doors can not stop a spirit from entering, so why was the stone removed? And if a spirit has to move does it have to unwound the winding sheets? It's not required for a spirit. It was removed because Jesus pbuh had a physical body. Because a spirit wouldn't need this, but a physical body does. This proves that Jesus pbuh the person who came out of the tomb was a physical body. And the tomb was private property of a secret disciple of Joseph. It was a big roomy tomb, in which Jesus pbuh was kept.

    JOHN 20:15
    15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

    Jesus pbuh sees Mary weeping and he comes to her and asks: “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” He's knowing very well what the reason is for her tears but yet he is asking. Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.” Why did Mary suppose Jesus pbuh was a gardener, do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? No, so why does she think this? It's because he was disguised as a gardener. Now why should a spiritual body be disguised as a gardener? Jesus pbuh was disguised as a gardener because he was afraid of the jews. A spiritual body need not be afraid of the jews because of this statement.

    HEBREWS 9:27
    27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    So a man dies only once.

    LUKE 20:36
    36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    If you are spiritualised you don't have to be afraid of anyone because nobody can harm you anymore. You can't die a second time so if he is resurrected and spiritualised why would he be disguised? Why should he be afraid? Why is he hiding? Why run away from the jews? Proving that he was not a spiritual body but that he was alive. And he says Mary, you know everybody calls there beloved one in a certain tone and way, so for Jesus pbuh saying Mary it was enough for her to know it was him. She immediatly recognizes him.

    JOHN 20:16-17
    16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”
    She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).
    17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    Touch me not? Why not? Will you be electrocuted by touching him? The reason he says this is because he was a physical body he was still alive, imagine the pain he had been through, the physcial pain, the emotional pressure that he has had going through that. So he says I have not yet ascended to the Father, which means he was not yet dead. Jesus pbuh says that he has not yet been resurrected. Proving that he was alive.

    MARK 16:11
    11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

    MATTHEW 12:38
    38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

    Sign meaning a miracle, all that he had done was not sufficient so they wanted a sign, they wanted a miracle. Like flying in the air, walking on water, they wanted some mircale. Then he replies.

    MATTHEW 12:39-40
    39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Jesus pbuh is putting all his eggs in one basket, the sign of Jonah. In short Jonah was thrown overboard. When someone is thrown overboard on sea he should die. But he doesn't die, it's a miracle. A big fish swallows him in and for three days and three nights with heat in the belly he is supposed to die but he doesn't die. It's a miracle. A miracle of a miracle of a miracle. "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
    As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish ALIVE so will the Son of Man be alive.
    Was Jesus pbuh dead or alive in the tomb? Most will say he was dead. But Jonah was alive wasn't he? And Jesus pbuh was dead? So was Jesus pbuh alike or unlike Jonah? If you say he died, then it's unlike, so then Jesus pbuh does not fulfill the prophecy. For the prophecy to be fulfilled Jesus pbuh should be alive in the tomb. Otherwise Jesus pbuh will be a liar because then he didn't fulfill the sign of Jonah. Which we can not agree. So Jesus pbuh did not die on the cross but he was alive.

    I think that's enough at first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwtog View Post
    Oxford Dictionaries:
    crucifies, crucifying, crucified
    "put (someone) to death by nailing or binding them to a cross"
    So for a person to be crucified he should die on the cross, if he does NOT die he is NOT crucified.

    resurrection
    "the act or instance of rising from the dead"
    For Christ to be resurrected he has to die if he doesn't die he can't be resurrected.

    According to Jesus pbuh the way for a person to obtain salvation is by keeping the law and the commandments.

    MATTHEW 19:16-17:
    16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
    17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

    According to Paul he nails the law and the commandments to the cross.

    COLOSSIANS 2:14
    14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

    And Paul says that salvation can be obtained by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus pbuh. And he says.

    1st BK. CORINTHIANS 15:14
    14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

    Paul says
    1st BK. CORINTHIANS 15:42-44
    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    So according to Paul if someone is resurrected their body is spiritualised for there is a natural physical body and a spiritual body. And the same is said by Jesus pbuh.

    LUKE 20:27-36
    27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?”
    34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    Resurrected bodies will be spiritualised according to Jesus pbuh and Paul says that.

    And there is not a single verse in any of the Gospels which mention Jesus pbuh was resurrected.

    Jesus pbuh enters the upper room and wishes shaloam to the disciples which means peace unto you.

    LUKE 24:36
    36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
    37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.

    The disciples thought Jesus pbuh was a spirit, but why? Did he look like a spirit? No he didn't, so why did they think this. It is because they HEARED that their master Jesus pbuh was put on the cross. They had learned that he had died and was burried. There were not eyewitnessess. Because it's stated in the bible.

    MARK 14:50
    50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.

    In the most crucial time when he needed them the most, they fled. Therefore they thought that he was a spirit because they had HEARED that he had died. But Jesus pbuh tells them he is not in the following verses.

    LUKE 24:39-40
    39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
    40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

    He tells them why are you afraid it's me handle me and see. Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones. Was he trying to prove that he was resurrected? That he was now a spirit? He was trying to prove that was not a spirit, that he was not resurrected.

    LUKE 24:41-42
    41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,

    Now they are happy that their master is alive, physical with flesh and bones in front of them. It says still they did not believe, so to confirm that he was alive so that they would believe him, he asks them if they have anything to eat. They gave him a broiled fish to eat, so he ate it. To prove what, that he was a spirit, that he was resurrected? To prove that he was a physical body, he ate and chewed in front of them to prove that he was not a spirit but that he was flesh and bones a physicial body.

    JOHN 20:1
    1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

    It was the first day of the week meaning that it was a sunday. She goes to the tomb, now why would she go to the tomb on the third day if Jesus pbuh was supossed to be dead?

    MARK 16:1
    1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.

    So she goes to the tomb of Jesus pbuh to massage his body. But jews never massage dead bodies on the third day. Neither do christians or muslims massage dead bodies on the third day. So why does she go to the tomb to massage the dead body on the third day?
    Because when she saw Jesus pbuh being removed from the cross she might have seen some life left in him. But of course she isn't going to say: HE'S ALIVE! Because then they would kill him for sure. Seeing certain life left in the lame body of Jesus pbuh she comes back on the third day after the sabbat day to look for a live Jesus pbuh.

    JOHN 20:1
    1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

    MARK 16:4
    4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.

    She finds that the stone has been removed and even the winding sheets were unwound and placed in a pile. Why should the stone be removed? And why should the winding sheets me unwound and piled up. If Jesus pbuh was resurrected as a spiritual body, does a spirit require a stone to be removed to go through the entrance? Doors can not stop a spirit from entering, so why was the stone removed? And if a spirit has to move does it have to unwound the winding sheets? It's not required for a spirit. It was removed because Jesus pbuh had a physical body. Because a spirit wouldn't need this, but a physical body does. This proves that Jesus pbuh the person who came out of the tomb was a physical body. And the tomb was private property of a secret disciple of Joseph. It was a big roomy tomb, in which Jesus pbuh was kept.

    JOHN 20:15
    15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

    Jesus pbuh sees Mary weeping and he comes to her and asks: “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” He's knowing very well what the reason is for her tears but yet he is asking. Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.” Why did Mary suppose Jesus pbuh was a gardener, do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? No, so why does she think this? It's because he was disguised as a gardener. Now why should a spiritual body be disguised as a gardener? Jesus pbuh was disguised as a gardener because he was afraid of the jews. A spiritual body need not be afraid of the jews because of this statement.

    HEBREWS 9:27
    27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    So a man dies only once.

    LUKE 20:36
    36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    If you are spiritualised you don't have to be afraid of anyone because nobody can harm you anymore. You can't die a second time so if he is resurrected and spiritualised why would he be disguised? Why should he be afraid? Why is he hiding? Why run away from the jews? Proving that he was not a spiritual body but that he was alive. And he says Mary, you know everybody calls there beloved one in a certain tone and way, so for Jesus pbuh saying Mary it was enough for her to know it was him. She immediatly recognizes him.

    JOHN 20:16-17
    16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”
    She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).
    17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    Touch me not? Why not? Will you be electrocuted by touching him? The reason he says this is because he was a physical body he was still alive, imagine the pain he had been through, the physcial pain, the emotional pressure that he has had going through that. So he says I have not yet ascended to the Father, which means he was not yet dead. Jesus pbuh says that he has not yet been resurrected. Proving that he was alive.

    MARK 16:11
    11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

    MATTHEW 12:38
    38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

    Sign meaning a miracle, all that he had done was not sufficient so they wanted a sign, they wanted a miracle. Like flying in the air, walking on water, they wanted some mircale. Then he replies.

    MATTHEW 12:39-40
    39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Jesus pbuh is putting all his eggs in one basket, the sign of Jonah. In short Jonah was thrown overboard. When someone is thrown overboard on sea he should die. But he doesn't die, it's a miracle. A big fish swallows him in and for three days and three nights with heat in the belly he is supposed to die but he doesn't die. It's a miracle. A miracle of a miracle of a miracle. "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
    As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish ALIVE so will the Son of Man be alive.
    Was Jesus pbuh dead or alive in the tomb? Most will say he was dead. But Jonah was alive wasn't he? And Jesus pbuh was dead? So was Jesus pbuh alike or unlike Jonah? If you say he died, then it's unlike, so then Jesus pbuh does not fulfill the prophecy. For the prophecy to be fulfilled Jesus pbuh should be alive in the tomb. Otherwise Jesus pbuh will be a liar because then he didn't fulfill the sign of Jonah. Which we can not agree. So Jesus pbuh did not die on the cross but he was alive.

    I think that's enough at first.
    What he said

  5. #5
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    jwtog didn't say anything nor answer my question.

    :/ all he did was just say "its a miracle".

    Congrats on realizing that, but its not the point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    jwtog didn't say anything nor answer my question.

    :/ all he did was just say "its a miracle".

    Congrats on realizing that, but its not the point.
    Ah ma mind is off this topic after it got moved.

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    It didn't get moved, you guys just don't understand basic logic.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    It didn't get moved, you guys just don't understand basic logic.
    Whats logic got to do with it moving?

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    the part where it didn't move.


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    Doesn't 500 years seem like nothing compared to the several thousand that it took for Jesus to come to Earth in the first place? Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't had the chance to read much more than short extracts from the Qur'an.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iRateIslam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jwtog View Post
    Oxford Dictionaries:
    crucifies, crucifying, crucified
    "put (someone) to death by nailing or binding them to a cross"
    So for a person to be crucified he should die on the cross, if he does NOT die he is NOT crucified.

    resurrection
    "the act or instance of rising from the dead"
    For Christ to be resurrected he has to die if he doesn't die he can't be resurrected.

    According to Jesus pbuh the way for a person to obtain salvation is by keeping the law and the commandments.

    MATTHEW 19:16-17:
    16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
    17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

    According to Paul he nails the law and the commandments to the cross.

    COLOSSIANS 2:14
    14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

    And Paul says that salvation can be obtained by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus pbuh. And he says.

    1st BK. CORINTHIANS 15:14
    14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

    Paul says
    1st BK. CORINTHIANS 15:42-44
    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    So according to Paul if someone is resurrected their body is spiritualised for there is a natural physical body and a spiritual body. And the same is said by Jesus pbuh.

    LUKE 20:27-36
    27 Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question. 28 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married a woman and died childless. 30 The second 31 and then the third married her, and in the same way the seven died, leaving no children. 32 Finally, the woman died too. 33 Now then, at the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?”
    34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    Resurrected bodies will be spiritualised according to Jesus pbuh and Paul says that.

    And there is not a single verse in any of the Gospels which mention Jesus pbuh was resurrected.

    Jesus pbuh enters the upper room and wishes shaloam to the disciples which means peace unto you.

    LUKE 24:36
    36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
    37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.

    The disciples thought Jesus pbuh was a spirit, but why? Did he look like a spirit? No he didn't, so why did they think this. It is because they HEARED that their master Jesus pbuh was put on the cross. They had learned that he had died and was burried. There were not eyewitnessess. Because it's stated in the bible.

    MARK 14:50
    50 Then everyone deserted him and fled.

    In the most crucial time when he needed them the most, they fled. Therefore they thought that he was a spirit because they had HEARED that he had died. But Jesus pbuh tells them he is not in the following verses.

    LUKE 24:39-40
    39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
    40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

    He tells them why are you afraid it's me handle me and see. Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones. Was he trying to prove that he was resurrected? That he was now a spirit? He was trying to prove that was not a spirit, that he was not resurrected.

    LUKE 24:41-42
    41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,

    Now they are happy that their master is alive, physical with flesh and bones in front of them. It says still they did not believe, so to confirm that he was alive so that they would believe him, he asks them if they have anything to eat. They gave him a broiled fish to eat, so he ate it. To prove what, that he was a spirit, that he was resurrected? To prove that he was a physical body, he ate and chewed in front of them to prove that he was not a spirit but that he was flesh and bones a physicial body.

    JOHN 20:1
    1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

    It was the first day of the week meaning that it was a sunday. She goes to the tomb, now why would she go to the tomb on the third day if Jesus pbuh was supossed to be dead?

    MARK 16:1
    1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.

    So she goes to the tomb of Jesus pbuh to massage his body. But jews never massage dead bodies on the third day. Neither do christians or muslims massage dead bodies on the third day. So why does she go to the tomb to massage the dead body on the third day?
    Because when she saw Jesus pbuh being removed from the cross she might have seen some life left in him. But of course she isn't going to say: HE'S ALIVE! Because then they would kill him for sure. Seeing certain life left in the lame body of Jesus pbuh she comes back on the third day after the sabbat day to look for a live Jesus pbuh.

    JOHN 20:1
    1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

    MARK 16:4
    4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.

    She finds that the stone has been removed and even the winding sheets were unwound and placed in a pile. Why should the stone be removed? And why should the winding sheets me unwound and piled up. If Jesus pbuh was resurrected as a spiritual body, does a spirit require a stone to be removed to go through the entrance? Doors can not stop a spirit from entering, so why was the stone removed? And if a spirit has to move does it have to unwound the winding sheets? It's not required for a spirit. It was removed because Jesus pbuh had a physical body. Because a spirit wouldn't need this, but a physical body does. This proves that Jesus pbuh the person who came out of the tomb was a physical body. And the tomb was private property of a secret disciple of Joseph. It was a big roomy tomb, in which Jesus pbuh was kept.

    JOHN 20:15
    15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

    Jesus pbuh sees Mary weeping and he comes to her and asks: “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” He's knowing very well what the reason is for her tears but yet he is asking. Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.” Why did Mary suppose Jesus pbuh was a gardener, do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? No, so why does she think this? It's because he was disguised as a gardener. Now why should a spiritual body be disguised as a gardener? Jesus pbuh was disguised as a gardener because he was afraid of the jews. A spiritual body need not be afraid of the jews because of this statement.

    HEBREWS 9:27
    27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    So a man dies only once.

    LUKE 20:36
    36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    If you are spiritualised you don't have to be afraid of anyone because nobody can harm you anymore. You can't die a second time so if he is resurrected and spiritualised why would he be disguised? Why should he be afraid? Why is he hiding? Why run away from the jews? Proving that he was not a spiritual body but that he was alive. And he says Mary, you know everybody calls there beloved one in a certain tone and way, so for Jesus pbuh saying Mary it was enough for her to know it was him. She immediatly recognizes him.

    JOHN 20:16-17
    16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”
    She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).
    17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    Touch me not? Why not? Will you be electrocuted by touching him? The reason he says this is because he was a physical body he was still alive, imagine the pain he had been through, the physcial pain, the emotional pressure that he has had going through that. So he says I have not yet ascended to the Father, which means he was not yet dead. Jesus pbuh says that he has not yet been resurrected. Proving that he was alive.

    MARK 16:11
    11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

    MATTHEW 12:38
    38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

    Sign meaning a miracle, all that he had done was not sufficient so they wanted a sign, they wanted a miracle. Like flying in the air, walking on water, they wanted some mircale. Then he replies.

    MATTHEW 12:39-40
    39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Jesus pbuh is putting all his eggs in one basket, the sign of Jonah. In short Jonah was thrown overboard. When someone is thrown overboard on sea he should die. But he doesn't die, it's a miracle. A big fish swallows him in and for three days and three nights with heat in the belly he is supposed to die but he doesn't die. It's a miracle. A miracle of a miracle of a miracle. "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
    As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish ALIVE so will the Son of Man be alive.
    Was Jesus pbuh dead or alive in the tomb? Most will say he was dead. But Jonah was alive wasn't he? And Jesus pbuh was dead? So was Jesus pbuh alike or unlike Jonah? If you say he died, then it's unlike, so then Jesus pbuh does not fulfill the prophecy. For the prophecy to be fulfilled Jesus pbuh should be alive in the tomb. Otherwise Jesus pbuh will be a liar because then he didn't fulfill the sign of Jonah. Which we can not agree. So Jesus pbuh did not die on the cross but he was alive.

    I think that's enough at first.
    What he said
    You had to quote such a HUGE post yes? thank you very much.

  12. #12
    jwtog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    I don't understand this:

    Jesus died/went to heaven lets say around 10AD.

    Christianity spread, the romans eventually adopted it, and they waged several wars with the cross as their flag.

    Around 500-600AD Muhammed "receives the word of god" and says Jesus didn't die, that he was a prophet, and that he just went straight to heaven.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Ok so supposedly God let people believe false reports for hundreds of years, have arguably the strongest empire adopt it as their main religion, and have to this day it be the main religion of the world.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    So I just have to ask:

    What motive do you possibly think God would have putting out new information about a guy 500 years later? That its credibility wouldn't be questioned?
    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    jwtog didn't say anything nor answer my question.

    :/ all he did was just say "its a miracle".

    Congrats on realizing that, but its not the point.
    I was giving evidence for why Muslims believe Jesus pbuh didn't die on the cross.

    I think one of the motives was that he'd put out new information because most of the people started having the wrong understanding about what actually does Son of God mean. People thinking or assuming Jesus pbuh was God, therefore God had to remind the people with the message he had also sent Jesus pbuh with. That there is no God but God alone.

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    Alen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [WhA]4FunPlayinBackup View Post
    You had to quote such a HUGE post yes? thank you very much.
    Thank you too.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwtog View Post
    I was giving evidence for why Muslims believe Jesus pbuh didn't die on the cross.

    I think one of the motives was that he'd put out new information because most of the people started having the wrong understanding about what actually does Son of God mean. People thinking or assuming Jesus pbuh was God, therefore God had to remind the people with the message he had also sent Jesus pbuh with. That there is no God but God alone.
    And how is that relevant?

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    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwtog View Post
    I was giving evidence for why Muslims believe Jesus pbuh didn't die on the cross.

    I think one of the motives was that he'd put out new information because most of the people started having the wrong understanding about what actually does Son of God mean. People thinking or assuming Jesus pbuh was God, therefore God had to remind the people with the message he had also sent Jesus pbuh with. That there is no God but God alone.
    :/ you haven't furthered the conversation since your first post, stop spamming.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeus View Post


    Thank you too.



    And how is that relevant?
    Since the topic title is Jesus in Islam I thought I'd provide some information on how Christ is viewed in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    :/ you haven't furthered the conversation since your first post, stop spamming.
    Actually I think I've answered your question in the first post?

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