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  1. #46
    Bombsaway707's Avatar
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    if you read the bible you'll see that the Israelite killed many people as directed by God. Yet the commandment "thou shalt not kill" seems to contradict the orders given by God. I think the definition "Thou shalt not murder" implying killing without just reason should be the literal translation instead of "Thou shalt not kill" which is misleading. However that brings up the point, what IS justified killing? I don't believe the Bible specifys this. We all know killing innocent civilians is wrong yet the bible doesn't say anything about when killing is just it just says thou shalt not kill which contradicts commandments given by God to the israelites
    Last edited by Bombsaway707; 12-18-2010 at 06:49 PM.

  2. #47
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    IMO Killing is never justified, unless that person/s has killed
    Previously Armalite42



  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by iRateIslam View Post


    U FUCKTARD 10 commandments = Christian/Jew
    The 10 commandments are universal in the 3 monotheistic religions.

    There are in the Qur’an certain aayaat (verses) which scholars call the verses of the Ten Commandments, because they include ten important commandments given by Allah to mankind. These aayaat are to be found in two passages of the Qur’an.

    The first is in Soorat al-An’aam, where Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “Say: ‘Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty – We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not near to al-fawaahish (shameful sins, illegal sexual intercourse, etc.), whether committed openly or secretly; and kill not anyone whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause (according to Islamic law). This He has commanded you that you may understand.

    And come not near to the orphan’s property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e., judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfil the Covenant of Allah. This He commands you, that you may remember.

    And, verily, this (i.e., Allah commandments mentioned in the above two verses) is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become al-muttaqoon (the pious).” [al-An’aam 6:151-153]

    The second passage occurs in Soorat al-Israa’, and may be considered as a commentary on the passage quoted above. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one or them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them, but address them in terms of honour.

    And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: ‘My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small.’

    Your Lord knows best what is in your inner-selves. If you are righteous, then, verily, He is ever Most-Forgiving to those who turn unto Him again and again in obedience, and in repentance.

    And give to the kindred his due and to the poor and to the wayfarer. But spend not wastefully (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift.

    Verily, spendthrifts are brothers of the shayaateen (devils), and the Shaytaan (Satan) is ever ungrateful to his Lord.

    And if you turn away from them (kindred, poor, wayfarers, etc. whom We have ordered you to give their rights, but if you have no money at the time they ask you for it) and you are awaiting a mercy from your Lord for which you hope, then, speak unto them a soft kind word (i.e., Allah will give to me and I will give to you).

    And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, not stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift), so that you become blameworthy and in severe poverty.

    Truly, your Lord enlarges the provision for whom He wills and straitens (for whom He wills). Verily, He is Ever All-Knower, All-Seer of His slaves.

    And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Surely the killing of them is a great sin.

    And come not near to unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a faahishah [i.e., anything that transgresses its limits (a great sin)], and an evil way (that leads one to Hell unless Allah forgives him).

    And do not kill anyone which Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed (intentionally with hostility and aggression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority [to demand qisaas – Law of Equality in punishment – or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e., he should not kill except the killer only). Verily, he is helped (by the Islamic law).

    And come not near to the orphan’s property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength. And fulfil (every) covenant. Verily! The covenant will be questioned about.

    And give full measure when you measure, and weigh with a balance that is straight. That is good (advantageous) and better in the end.

    And follow not (O man, i.e., say not, or do not or witness not, etc.) that of which you have no knowledge. Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those you will be questioned by Allah.

    And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance. Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain a stature like that of the mountains in height.

    All the bad aspects of these (the above mentioned things) are hateful to your Lord.

    This is part of al-hikmah (wisdom, good manners and high character, etc.) which your Lord has inspired to you (O Muhammad). And set not up with Allah any other ilaah (god) lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected (from Allah mercy).” [al-Israa’ 17:23-39]

    C+P ftw
    Last edited by Liz; 12-18-2010 at 07:18 PM.


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  4. #49
    iRateIslam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liz View Post


    The 10 commandments are universal in the 3 monotheistic religions.

    There are in the Qur’an certain aayaat (verses) which scholars call the verses of the Ten Commandments, because they include ten important commandments given by Allah to mankind. These aayaat are to be found in two passages of the Qur’an.

    The first is in Soorat al-An’aam, where Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “Say: ‘Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from: Join not anything in worship with him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty – We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not near to al-fawaahish (shameful sins, illegal sexual intercourse, etc.), whether committed openly or secretly; and kill not anyone whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause (according to Islamic law). This He has commanded you that you may understand.

    And come not near to the orphan’s property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e., judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfil the Covenant of Allah. This He commands you, that you may remember.

    And, verily, this (i.e., Allah commandments mentioned in the above two verses) is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become al-muttaqoon (the pious).” [al-An’aam 6:151-153]

    The second passage occurs in Soorat al-Israa’, and may be considered as a commentary on the passage quoted above. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one or them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them, but address them in terms of honour.

    And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: ‘My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small.’

    Your Lord knows best what is in your inner-selves. If you are righteous, then, verily, He is ever Most-Forgiving to those who turn unto Him again and again in obedience, and in repentance.

    And give to the kindred his due and to the poor and to the wayfarer. But spend not wastefully (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift.

    Verily, spendthrifts are brothers of the shayaateen (devils), and the Shaytaan (Satan) is ever ungrateful to his Lord.

    And if you turn away from them (kindred, poor, wayfarers, etc. whom We have ordered you to give their rights, but if you have no money at the time they ask you for it) and you are awaiting a mercy from your Lord for which you hope, then, speak unto them a soft kind word (i.e., Allah will give to me and I will give to you).

    And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, not stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift), so that you become blameworthy and in severe poverty.

    Truly, your Lord enlarges the provision for whom He wills and straitens (for whom He wills). Verily, He is Ever All-Knower, All-Seer of His slaves.

    And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and for you. Surely the killing of them is a great sin.

    And come not near to unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a faahishah [i.e., anything that transgresses its limits (a great sin)], and an evil way (that leads one to Hell unless Allah forgives him).

    And do not kill anyone which Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed (intentionally with hostility and aggression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority [to demand qisaas – Law of Equality in punishment – or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e., he should not kill except the killer only). Verily, he is helped (by the Islamic law).

    And come not near to the orphan’s property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength. And fulfil (every) covenant. Verily! The covenant will be questioned about.

    And give full measure when you measure, and weigh with a balance that is straight. That is good (advantageous) and better in the end.

    And follow not (O man, i.e., say not, or do not or witness not, etc.) that of which you have no knowledge. Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those you will be questioned by Allah.

    And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance. Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain a stature like that of the mountains in height.

    All the bad aspects of these (the above mentioned things) are hateful to your Lord.

    This is part of al-hikmah (wisdom, good manners and high character, etc.) which your Lord has inspired to you (O Muhammad). And set not up with Allah any other ilaah (god) lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected (from Allah mercy).” [al-Israa’ 17:23-39]

    C+P ftw
    No we have the 5pillars of Islam. Not 10 commandments.

    * SHAHADAH. This Pillar is believing and saying the words. “There is no god except Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”.
    * SALAH. This Pillar is praying five times a day. There are set prayers which Muslims should say, and all Muslims should face Mecca in Arabia when praying, and should pray on a prayer mat. People should wash before they pray. There are fixed movements, which include kneeling with the forehead placed on the ground in front. This expresses the servant status of the human being in relation to Allah.
    * ZAKAH. Each year, Muslims are supposed to give a fixed proportion of their savings for endeavours such as helping the poor. In this way, they believe that their wealth is “made pure”
    * SAWM. Refraining from food and drink during the month of Ramadan during daylight hours.
    * HAJJ. This is making a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in your life, if it can be afforded.

  5. #50
    CaT-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iRateIslam View Post
    No we have the 5pillars of Islam. Not 10 commandments.

    * SHAHADAH. This Pillar is believing and saying the words. “There is no god except Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah”.
    * SALAH. This Pillar is praying five times a day. There are set prayers which Muslims should say, and all Muslims should face Mecca in Arabia when praying, and should pray on a prayer mat. People should wash before they pray. There are fixed movements, which include kneeling with the forehead placed on the ground in front. This expresses the servant status of the human being in relation to Allah.
    * ZAKAH. Each year, Muslims are supposed to give a fixed proportion of their savings for endeavours such as helping the poor. In this way, they believe that their wealth is “made pure”
    * SAWM. Refraining from food and drink during the month of Ramadan during daylight hours.
    * HAJJ. This is making a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in your life, if it can be afforded.
    Those seem more like guidelines.


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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaT- View Post


    Those seem more like guidelines.
    Like i said, we don't have commandments, though the 10 commandments are obligatory in Islam, but there not listed as top 10 best.

    The 5pillers are guidelines. /some of them.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by iRateIslam View Post
    Like i said, we don't have commandments, though the 10 commandments are obligatory in Islam, but there not listed as top 10 best.

    The 5pillers are guidelines. /some of them.
    woah something we agree on.


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  8. #53
    Empire's Avatar
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    ARRRRR! THey be more like guideline than actual rules matey!


  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    ARRRRR! THey be more like guideline than actual rules matey!
    A pirate troll thats a new one.


    Somali pirate troll face took me long to find it, so appreciate it :c


  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bombsaway707 View Post
    if you read the bible you'll see that the Israelite killed many people as directed by God. Yet the commandment "thou shalt not kill" seems to contradict the orders given by God. I think the definition "Thou shalt not murder" implying killing without just reason should be the literal translation instead of "Thou shalt not kill" which is misleading. However that brings up the point, what IS justified killing? I don't believe the Bible specifys this. We all know killing innocent civilians is wrong yet the bible doesn't say anything about when killing is just it just says thou shalt not kill which contradicts commandments given by God to the israelites
    God, did no one read my post?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Wish I would have gotten in on this earlier.
    From the perspective if a Christian, not straight out of the bible belt, following the commandments strictly is not only impossible, but legalistic.
    Let's start with the New Testament. This part of the bible denounces everything said in the Old Testament about laws, rules, and guidelines in terms of your standing with God.
    How? It's stated that those who accept Jesus as their savior are free from the law and are given eternal life.
    Free from the law.
    Then one may ask, "What about people who lived before the New Testament? Are they just screwed?"
    Nope.
    The Commandments were created by God, for man. Not by God, for God.
    No where does it say in the bible that following the law alone will grant one righteousness. So in the same way, as long as they are saved, NOT following the law cannot strip righteousness from them.

    I've read several books analyzing the flawed theology of legalism, and I tried to make everything I know short, which really doesn't explain everything well, but I'm open to questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post


    Wish I would have gotten in on this earlier.
    From the perspective if a Christian, not straight out of the bible belt, following the commandments strictly is not only impossible, but legalistic.
    Let's start with the New Testament. This part of the bible denounces everything said in the Old Testament about laws, rules, and guidelines in terms of your standing with God.
    How? It's stated that those who accept Jesus as their savior are free from the law and are given eternal life.
    Free from the law.
    Then one may ask, "What about people who lived before the New Testament? Are they just screwed?"
    Nope.
    The Commandments were created by God, for man. Not by God, for God.
    No where does it say in the bible that following the law alone will grant one righteousness. So in the same way, as long as they are saved, NOT following the law cannot strip righteousness from them.

    I've read several books analyzing the flawed theology of legalism, and I tried to make everything I know short, which really doesn't explain everything well, but I'm open to questions.


    All things are connected.

    i.e:

    If the bible told us: Be good and u shall be saved.

    Then it tells us: Accept jesus and u shall be saved [which it don't :P]

    Then u must, be good and accept jesus.

    Its all connected, the problem is, u believe in the bible but u ignore half the bible.
    What??

    Following the 10 commandments is a MUST. if u don't follow it and tell me "NOT following the law cannot strip righteousness from them." then u sir, are taking out bits which u like, and leaving bits which u dislike.

    Stupidness.

    This is what the bible printers/scholars did. if something is impossible i.e: "Bring the unbelievers infront of me and slay them" then its removed from the bible. simple...

    --


    Conclusion:

    Just follow the commandments without them, theres no hope. ur just a fool who accepts some and ignores some.

  12. #57
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piXeKing View Post


    All things are connected.

    i.e:

    If the bible told us: Be good and u shall be saved.

    Then it tells us: Accept jesus and u shall be saved [which it don't :P]

    Then u must, be good and accept jesus.

    Its all connected, the problem is, u believe in the bible but u ignore half the bible.
    What??

    Following the 10 commandments is a MUST. if u don't follow it and tell me "NOT following the law cannot strip righteousness from them." then u sir, are taking out bits which u like, and leaving bits which u dislike.

    Stupidness.

    This is what the bible printers/scholars did. if something is impossible i.e: "Bring the unbelievers infront of me and slay them" then its removed from the bible. simple...

    --


    Conclusion:

    Just follow the commandments without them, theres no hope. ur just a fool who accepts some and ignores some.
    You just can't wrap your head around the fact that a large portion of the OT rules were to prepare Jews for the Messiah.

    When Christ held his sermon on the mount, and he said that the father's laws are to be upheld, that he didn't come to abolish them, who do you think he was teaching? JEWS. Of course he taught that the laws were still intact, because he didn't finish his work. His last complete act on earth would be his work on the cross. At the time he walked and taught with the disciples, he was constantly preparing.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    You just can't wrap your head around the fact that a large portion of the OT rules were to prepare Jews for the Messiah.

    When Christ held his sermon on the mount, and he said that the father's laws are to be upheld, that he didn't come to abolish them, who do you think he was teaching? JEWS. Of course he taught that the laws were still intact, because he didn't finish his work. His last complete act on earth would be his work on the cross. At the time he walked and taught with the disciples, he was constantly preparing.
    Confused, im going to change the subject here and talk about the name "JESUS".

    When did the word "jesus get invented"?
    Whats the reason for it?
    does it prove editing in the bible?

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by piXeKing View Post


    Confused, im going to change the subject here and talk about the name "JESUS".

    When did the word "jesus get invented"?
    Whats the reason for it?
    does it prove editing in the bible?
    Nah man, Jesus I believed originated in the Latin Vulgates.

    The true name of Jesus is Yeshua. This is his Hebrew name
    Translated in English it is Jeshua.

    When translated from Latin, you get Jesus.

    The real only issue I have ever had with the names is this:

    Yeshua means:
    a cry for help", "a saving cry",that is to say, a shout given when in need of rescue. Together, the name would then literally mean, "God is a saving-cry,"

    But Jesus means:
    "The anointed one."

    I tend to use both, Yeshua and Jesus
    But I tend to go more with Jesus, just because I am so used to it,
    since it's used more in the English Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piXeKing View Post


    Confused, im going to change the subject here and talk about the name "JESUS".

    When did the word "jesus get invented"?
    Whats the reason for it?
    does it prove editing in the bible?
    Nope, no changing the subject.
    Thanks for backing me up James.
    My statements were against the ideals of legalists. They're the ones who take bits they like and leave the ones they don't.
    The bible never says "be good and you shall be saved" nor does it say anything to the effect of "failure to abide by the laws results in damnation".
    The law was never given the purpose of bringing about righteousness.
    In no way did the 10 commandments ever, nor do they now, determine one's standing in the eyes of God.
    After the events of the cross, acceptance of Jesus as the savior became the one and only way to be deemed righteous and worth of heaven.
    Before the commandments were even created, Abraham was deemed righteous by God (I'll get the verse if you want it) simply due to obedience.
    That's just one example.
    Christianity is not based on a theology of works but on a theology of faith.
    That's what separates it from most other world religions.
    They require works to achieve a greater "purpose" if you will, to keep it broad.

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