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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Well you see there is this thing called morals, ethics, and basic human goodness.

    Its actually timeless believe it or not. No matter what time period you are at, I'm sure any by any religious standards(especially one SO peaceful), that war is bad/sinful.
    --------------------------------------

    Point being: Its hard to believe a religion where the creator disobeyed his own rules.
    I didn't know that you did not believe in self-defense. There is a difference between war and protecting yourself.

    Yes, there are some timeless morals, ethics, etc. but the thing you pointed out, Muhammad's wives, do not apply to these timeless values.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaporak10 View Post
    I didn't know that you did not believe in self-defense. There is a difference between war and protecting yourself.

    Yes, there are some timeless morals, ethics, etc. but the thing you pointed out, Muhammad's wives, do not apply to these timeless values.
    Well its funny how you call any of it "protecting themselves". You see there is defense and there is having an army, performing raids, and generally speaking : Not against war in practice and speech.

    So lets just say that, yeah, muhammed wasn't peaceful in practice.
    -----------------------

    Ok lets go into having mutiple wives.

    First off, researching here you find out some interesting things............
    1. With muhammeds first wife(Khadija the merchant), he had 6 kids. 2 Sons and 4 daughters.
    2. He did consumate the marriage with aisha.
    3. God "forbade anyone to marry muhammads wives" in the Quran:
    "Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy Allah's Messenger, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time"
    4. This too easy.

    Lets start with 3 here.

    Argument 1: Remarrying.

    Its funny to me how "god forbid" anyone marry muhammad's wives but he could marry others. Kinda odd how this works. He married other widows, yet people aren't allowed to marry his. Odd even more how the quran forbid this. So god is ok with him doing the act, but no one else can?

    Argument 2: Many wives
    It seems odd how Muhammad who was sooo generous with charity and such. But he had to marry "certain" people in order to provide. In the tribe he was suggested to marry such people by the leader of the tribe. Aisha was at a young age, not consumated till later, but still. Then you have many widows, a slave, and other such things.
    -Again, no one other than muhammed can marry this many by the religious laws, but muhammed can.

    Both arguments are basically the same: The quran doesn't allow such things, but sure, muhammed can.


    P.S.
    I can debate on modern morals all i want and i would be right too. But you'll just dismiss it to "at the time it was ok" like a dumbass. So i tried to present you with a debate that contradicted the quran itself and therefore islam.


  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Argument 1: Remarrying.
    Let's use common sense here. The prophet has passed away. His wives live on. Here comes the issue. Who will they marry? They were the prophet's wife. If they did re-marry, who they would marry, what status they should be in, their children against the Prophet's original children, etc. It would cause fitna and strife in the Muslims world. And thus, they did not re-marry.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Argument 2: Many wives
    Exceptions were made for Muhammad. For example, he had to pray more often. (Quran 17:79)
    Anyways, there are 4 main reasons why he married them.
    - Since his wives were young, middle-aged, and old, the requirements and norms of Islamic law could be seen
    - Each wife was from a different clan or tribe, which allowed the Prophet to establish bonds of kinship and affinity throughout the rapidly expanding Muslim community.
    - Each wife, both during and after the Prophet’s life, proved to be of great benefit and service to the cause of Islam. They conveyed his message and interpreted it to their clans: the outer and inward experience, and the qualities, manners, and faith of the man whose life was the embodiment of the Qur’an and Islam in practice.
    - Through his marriages, the Prophet(P) established ties of kinship throughout Arabia. This gave him the freedom to move and be accepted as a member in each family. Since they regarded him as one of their own, they felt they could go to him in person and ask him directly about this life and the Hereafter. The tribes also benefited collectively from their proximity to him: they considered themselves fortunate and took pride in that relationship, such as the Umayyads (through Umm Habiba), the Hashimites (through Zaynab bint Jahsh), and the Bani Makhzum (through Umm Salama).

    Here is the website for the full info - Why Was the Prophet Polygamous?


    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    I can debate on modern morals all i want and i would be right too. But you'll just dismiss it to "at the time it was ok" like a dumbass.
    Quite frankly, it is retarded to judge an event 1400 years ago with our modern standards.
    Last edited by vaporak10; 04-26-2012 at 07:25 PM.

  4. #49
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    Again, you seem to not get the point here. The argument isn't on whether its acceptable now, thats already been established as pointless since you will just dismiss it as being "ok at the time".(although for such a important religious leader, his actions should be timeless: see jesus or buddha).

    anyway on topic here:

    You see this is the point i'm trying to make is "exceptions" oh its fine because he's the prophet. Right. He can wage war and have 13 wives and disobey HIS OWN LAW: because he's a prophet. And prophets are exempt from the law, even if its there own.

    Its like jesus saying "turn the other cheek" then the minute he gets slapped he pulls out a sword and kills the guy.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm not going for "sleeping with aisha was bad" or the morality of that. I'm strictly staying on the topic of how he contradicted his own laws, and how you think its ok "because he was a prophet".


  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    He can wage war
    Self-Defense. Do I have to repeat that? No exception there, all Muslims are allowed to have defend themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    disobey HIS OWN LAW
    Critical mistake on your part. Muslim's believe this is God's law, not Muhammads. God gives exceptions to who He sees fit. Muhammad did not marry 13 wives because of lust, he married them because they inspired a greater sense of unity and brotherhood in the ummah.

  6. #51
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaporak10 View Post
    Self-Defense. Do I have to repeat that? No exception there, all Muslims are allowed to have defend themselves.



    Critical mistake on your part. Muslim's believe this is God's law, not Muhammads. God gives exceptions to who He sees fit. Muhammad did not marry 13 wives because of lust, he married them because they inspired a greater sense of unity and brotherhood in the ummah.
    Yeah......you do realize that raids aren't defensive right?(in fact the majority were offensive in nature.) In any case war in general(all war) is non peaceful by nature. Unless you are defending. And by defending i mean actual defense. You can't call raids and offensive siege "defending".

    But more to the point overall: He justifies war through religion.

    -This is pretty much the "fool's war" in every case put in. There has never been a holy war that was in itself absolutely just.(not that war is ever just). But the point being is that promoting peace then entering war on the grounds that "the religion says its ok" is ridiculous.
    --------------------------

    Well as a muslim, muhammad has to obey his own religious laws correct? Therefore it is his.

    I guess this is even more relevant to the "muhammed made the quran for personal gain" argument though. Because it does say that he is exempt but not why. God just gave him permission to have literally infinite wives, for no reason.

    Its kinda iffy that god had put no limit on THIS but actually put a limit to 4 wives for muslims(lol yeah women aren't equal in Islam).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Again i come back to this. Muhammad made the quran for personal gain.

    Lets see:
    Permission to wage war.
    Permission to have many wives.



    Lets just go with these two for now. Basically muhammed scored 2 out of the 3 riches of the world here. Women and power. The fact that "god allows" him to marry as many women as he likes(because god wouldn't limit the number on his VIP) and because god surely wouldn't stop the guy from waging war(because peace is overrated) is like saying war/violence are ok and women aren't equal.

    But if god says its ok, it must be right? This is the same trap that humanity falls into over and over. To avoid it simply take the time to think:

    Would god promote violence, treat women unequally, and not provide any physical evidence of his word?
    -------------------

    Yeah, upon further research it turns out Muhammad actually just "recited" the quran for other people to write down.(go figure he's illiterate! Not that it actually matters). Anyway, so muhammad recited this and there was no original copy. So basically he told people a story and they wrote it down, must be the word of god! Because there is............oh boy.........no proof of that? What? no way!

    There is actually no proof that the quran is the word of god outside of muhammad saying it is.
    "the Quran did not exist in book form at the time of Muhammad's death in 632"

    So ironically......the "original quran" was what people had to use from memory. Hell this is amazing stuff here.

    Muslims believe that some guy couldn't make this up, because.......he said he didn't.


    *Facepalm* wow.


  7. #52
    vaporak10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Permission to wage war.
    You do know that the Meccans were persecuting, torturing, and killing Muslims? This was a war of survival. I can go into more detail about these "offensive raids" and I'll do that later.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Permission to have many wives.
    I gave you reasons why he had many wives. You have not refuted any of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    put a limit to 4 wives for muslims(lol yeah women aren't equal in Islam).
    Why does the Qur'an allow Muslim men to have four wives? - IslamCan.com


    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Yeah, upon further research it turns out Muhammad actually just "recited" the quran for other people to write down.
    How did an illeterate bedouin come up with this?
    The Qur’an’s Challenge: A Literary & Linguistic Miracle


    Listen, my goal is not to convert anyone to Islam. Just clearing that up.
    Second, you have not refuted any of the reasons I gave.
    Third, you repeat the same thing over and over.
    Last, where are you doing your research from?

  8. #53
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    Yeah kinda figured you had nothing. *sigh* Make a whole paragraph, and the guy still thinks i'm talking about muhammad in the sense that he "had a reason".

    Past that now, trying to point out that your taking obviously wrong things and giving them justification because "its part of the religion".
    -which btw: The own religion says its a no.
    -----------------------------

    And just so you know, illiterate has nothing to do with quran's creation. Moreover, calling something poetry is laughable because whoever wrote it down, did it after muhammad died.(meaning the real poet would be the guy who wrote it down and not Muhammad himself as he was "illiterate") I don't think you know what illiteracy means here, and i think more or less that you keep saying "oh since he's illiterate it must be god" when he literally just spoke the whole thing.
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    You can't justify women equality and having 4 wives. That in itself is proven. [✔]
    -------------------------------------------

    And the funny thing about war and people who preach peace, is that people who preach peace(muhammad in this case) resort to war. This shows more than just a "man going to war", when you preach peace and such then lead raids/sieges.......it shows that you are using religion, for war.
    -You might wanna take into the account that the quran was being "created" in this time, meaning the whole "allah aproves" part was made during this time as well.

    God approving of war [✔]???

    Lol ok, i'll just leave you with that.
    Last edited by Empire; 04-28-2012 at 04:11 PM.


  9. #54
    Ethereal's Avatar
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    According to the Quran it really doesn't matter what you do, as long as you believe in Allah he will forgive you.
    Don't even bother coming back with anything for that, because it's written plain as day,
    no metaphors whatsoever. Lol the sad thing is that it doesn't even require repenting or feeling remorse for your crimes.
    Technically a Muslim can stroll into a village and murder a whole family in any type of grotesque fashion he wishes,
    but as long as he believes in Allah, he's all set. No worries.

    You see, this is why organized religion is comparable to politics,
    and this is why Islam appeals to even the most vile and despicable human beings.
    Sure the Quran has peaceful passages, but many religious books did way before the Quran's time.
    Yet many of those religions seem to be fading away as more and more people embrace Atheism.
    Perhaps humans have grown too lazy to adhere to all of the prerequisites that insure them transcendence after our bodies expire.
    So it makes complete sense why Islam has been growing in popularity.
    Ahh and look at the influx of violent criminals incarcerated for violent crimes who have embraced Islam.
    Many continue to do the same things they did that landed them inside.
    I guess that would have nothing to do with the promise of courting multiple wives,
    the allure of being able to continue their thug ways as long as they believe,
    and the promise of virgins ready to suck their disease infested dicks if they become Jihad superheroes.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 04-28-2012 at 10:37 PM.

  10. #55
    vaporak10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    According to the Quran it really doesn't matter what you do, as long as you believe in Allah he will forgive you.
    Worng. Have you heard of Taubah?
    The steps are in this
    (1) Stop the sin you are doing
    (2) Feel remorse, sorry for yourself. Display humility
    (3) Pledge to God you will never do it again

    You can't just commit a sin in Islam and be like 'I believe in God, I am spared".
    Repentance in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    and the promise of virgins ready to suck their disease infested dicks if they become Jihad superheroes.
    I wonder why I even bother replying to people who say Islam is evil but then talk like animals.

    Hypocrites

    ---------- Post added at 05:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    You can't justify women equality and having 4 wives. That in itself is proven
    You never refuted my points. So stop avoiding it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    And the funny thing about war and people who preach peace, is that people who preach peace(muhammad in this case) resort to war.
    Look up the words "Self Defense"

    I am done with you. You bring no facts to the table and when I do, you never cease to amaze me as in how you avoid them.
    Bye

  11. #56
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    Yeah......but if you do it again you just repeat the process.....which pretty much proves his point.
    ----------

    Your point was that muhammed had a reason for having many wives. Which......doesn't even address the topic on how it contradicts the law and how he made it up after his 1st wife.
    ----------------------------------
    Self defense?
    Military career of Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Funny how i don't see a lot of "defense" scenarios. Unless you are actually stupid enough to make the pre-emptive strike argument, i think my point has been proven thrice now. (lol @ raids are in self defense argument)
    -----------

    Your facts are irrelevant to the topic........ Posting how the quran is "poetry"(not a fact) when muhammed didn't write it down, posting "reasons for muhammeds marriages"(which wasn't actually a fact either).

    Don't talk about facts bringing nothing to the table.


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    Quote Originally Posted by vaporak10 View Post
    Worng. Have you heard of Taubah?
    The steps are in this
    (1) Stop the sin you are doing
    (2) Feel remorse, sorry for yourself. Display humility
    (3) Pledge to God you will never do it again

    You can't just commit a sin in Islam and be like 'I believe in God, I am spared".
    Repentance in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




    "O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."
    -Hadithi Qudsi

    Oh my bad, all you gotta do is say "sorry Allah"
    Then it's all good

  13. #58
    vaporak10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post



    "O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."
    -Hadithi Qudsi

    Oh my bad, all you gotta do is say "sorry Allah"
    Then it's all good
    Seek the forgiveness of your Lord, and turn to Him in repentance, that He may grant you good enjoyment, for a term appointed, and bestow His abounding Grace to every owner of grace [ Hud 3]

    Ask forgiveness of your Lord and then repent to Him [Hud 52] .

    “And ask forgiveness of your Lord and turn unto Him in repentance. Verily, my Lord is Most Merciful, Most Loving.” [ Hud 90]

    "Except those who repent, have faith and good deeds, those Allah will charge their sins for good deeds. Certainly Allah is most forgiving and merciful." (Qur'an 25:70)

    Repentence: At-Taubah with the 3 conditions

    So only saying "Sorry Allah" does not work.

    Quran trumps Hadith, so your claim is wrong.

    ---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Self defense? Military career of Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Ooooh... a wiki article. Quite sophisticated.

    Since you are a fan of the wiki articles, read them for yourself.

    "The raids were generally offensive[10] and carried out to gather intelligence or seize the trade goods of Caravans financed by the Quraysh, (such thefts were rationalized as being legitimate actions because many Muslims left their possessions behind when they migrated from Mecca).[11][12] The Muslims declared that the raids were justified and that God gave them permission to defend against the Meccans' persecution of Muslims."

    So you are saying that if a group of people are chased out of their home, and they lose ALL their possesions and wealth, they have no right to fight to get them back?
    Last edited by vaporak10; 05-01-2012 at 10:59 PM.

  14. #59
    Empire's Avatar
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    [COLOR="Black"]Again vaporak, his point is already proven. Repentance works for repeat offenders meaning it really is another "im sorry" and its all good. The whole "don't ever do it again" would literally make all of islam guilty because humans repeat sins constantly.
    -------------------------------------

    @ defensive war: Again, it even says in the quote "the muslims declared the raids justified and that god gave them permission"

    So let me break this down in the simplest way i can.

    1. War is about to break out.

    2. Muhammad tells everyone god is ok with it.

    3. They wage war.

    With not one witness to gods interaction with muhammed, this is basically him saying w/e the hell he wants to benifit him. Coincidentally god said this just before they started the war, but not written or anything with proof, he merely spoke to muhammad and he in turn told the people.

    What a coincidence huh?


    -------------

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
    -A battle where muslims attacked a defensive position and stole loot for future campaigns from the citizens. So yeah, stealing/offensive battle with no way to say its "defensive". lol.

    Perhaps the best proof that Muhammad was not acting in self-defense is the fact that his own people did not understand why they were marching to war. His son-in-law, who was in charge of the military expedition, had to ask for justification:

    Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
    Last edited by Empire; 05-02-2012 at 03:23 AM.


  15. #60
    vaporak10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    So let me break this down in the simplest way i can.
    1. War is about to break out.
    2. Muhammad tells everyone god is ok with it.
    3. They wage war.
    The problem is? The Meccans persecuted them, took everything they had and they can't react in self-defense?

    This is the thing. The Muslims did not react violently. They fled to Medina and Abyssinia, yet they did not fight back. Then they had permission too. Yes, this did benefit Muhammad and the Muslims. How? They didn't get slaughtered by the Meccans and they fought back.

    About Khaybar...

    "On the reasons for the attack, Scottish historian William Montgomery Watt notes the presence in Khaybar of the Banu Nadir, who were inciting hostilities along with neighboring Arab tribes against the Islamic community in Medina. Italian orientalist Laura Veccia Vaglieri, while giving full credence to Watt's view, claims other motives included the prestige the engagement would confer upon Muhammad among his followers, as well the booty which could be used to supplement future campaigns"

    America invaded Iraq to topple Saddam (supposedly). And they got cheap oil out of it.
    The Muslims attacked Khaybar because they were causing strife, violence and mistrust between others. And some loot came out of it. You may not know, but the losing army usually loses resources when they lose a battle.
    Treaty of Versailles
    Meeting at Vienna
    etc.
    Last edited by vaporak10; 05-02-2012 at 06:41 PM.

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