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    Cool Who is the Creator?

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    Who is the Creator?

    Can It Be Matter?

    A very popular question among atheists is, ‘Granted that the existence of temporal things necessitates the existence of an eternal cause, why should that cause be the God of religion? Why can’t matter be eternal and be therefore in no need of an eternal creator?’ I shall argue, on an Islamic basis but at the same time also on a rational basis, that the attribute of eternity entails other attributes, which matter does not and cannot have, and cannot, in view of this, play the role of the original and ultimate cause of temporal things. Muslim theologians say that eternity of existence logically implies everlastingness. This is true because, if something is eternal then it does not depend for its existence on anything outside itself. If this is so then it can never pass away, because only those things pass away that lose some of the external conditions on which they depend for their existence. If the ultimate cause of temporal things is eternal and everlasting, it must of necessity be self-sufficient, qayyoom and ghanee.

    Can there be more than one such creator? The Quran tells us that this is impossible;
    “God never had a child, nor have there been any gods beside him. (Had there been any), each of them would have appropriated to himself what he created, and some would have overcome others.”

    This Quranic argument was paraphrased by some Muslim theologians in a way somewhat like the following: The assumption that there are gods beside the one true God leads to false consequences and must therefore be false. If there is more than one god, then (a) if every detail of everything in the world was the result of the action of one of the gods, it cannot at the same time be the result of the action of another god. But if (b) some things in the world were created by some gods, and others by other gods, then each god would rule independently over what he created, which means that nothing in his world can even in principle, be influenced by anything outside it. But this contradicts the observed unity and interdependence of the world. And if that is impossible, then (c) some gods will overcome others, but if that happens then the ones who are vanquished cannot be true gods. There can, therefore, be no more than one creator.

    How does this creator create? Since He is self-sufficient, He cannot be said to depend on anything outside Himself in any actions, and cannot therefore be said to produce His effects the way natural causes do. But if He is not a natural cause, He must be a volitional agent. And since intention implies knowledge, and knowledge and intention imply life, he must be a living being. Since He is an eternal and everlasting being, all His attributes must reflect this quality; thus He must be not only knowing, but all-knowing, not only powerful, but all-powerful, etc.

    Since no matter in any form can answer to these attributes, and since all these attributes are implied by the two attributes of eternity and everlastingness, no form of matter can be either eternal or everlasting, and thus no matter of any form can play the role of that ultimate cause. This much of the attributes that an eternal and everlasting creator must have is enough, I suppose, to show that it cannot be matter.

    But this conclusion can be further confirmed by what modern science tells us about the nature of matter.

    Why Should He Be The God of Islam?

    Some might say, ‘Granted that this god is a personal and living God, and that He has the attributes which you mentioned, why should He be the God of Islam and not, say the Christian or Jewish God?’ The God of Islam is the God of all true prophets of God from Adam down to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. But it is a basic claim of the religion with which Muhammad came that previous religions (including Christianity and Judaism) have not been kept in their pristine form which those prophets advocated, but have been tampered with and distorted. The only religion whose book has taken upon itself to be preserved from any such distortions is the religion of the last of God’s prophets, namely Muhammad (p.b.u.h.). This is not to say that everything in those religions is false or bad. No! There is much in them that is good and true; it is only those elements in them that contradict Islam which must be false or bad. But even if they were to be purged of everything that is not in consonance with Islam, they would still be less perfect than Islam is, especially in their conceptions of God, therefore unsuitable for being universal religions.

    Having said this, let me give one example of a non-Islamic religious belief which the Quran considers to be a stupendous blasphemy against God, namely that He has children. At the time of the Prophet, some Arabs believed that the angels were the daughters of God, while some Christians believed that Jesus was the son of God, and some Jews believed that Ezra was the son of God. Just as the Quran gave arguments for the impossibility of there being any gods besides the one true God, it also gave elaborate arguments to show the impossibility of Him having a child, whether male or female. If the Creator is one and self-sufficient, then He is also unique, ahad, “Nothing is like Him.” But if so then, “He neither begets nor is He begotten.” “How can He have a child if He has no consort, and if He created everything?” The Quran is here saying that the claim that God has children contradicts the facts (acknowledged by those who make this claim) that He is the Creator of everything, that He is Self-sufficient, and that He has no spouse. Now if He is the creator of everything, this necessarily includes the one who is claimed to be His child. But if this is created by Him, it cannot be His child; it has to be one of His creations. One does not create one’s child; one begets it. If it is insisted that the child is actually begotten and not created by God, this will entail the following false consequences:

    The begotten child must be of the same nature as its father, in which case God will not be unique or one.
    God will not be the creator of everything.
    God will have to have a spouse, who must of course be of the same nature as He is, otherwise they cannot beget anything.
    But in that case the number of beings who are of the same nature as God will be raised to three.
    If the child is begotten then it cannot be eternal, i.e. it cannot be of the same nature as the father.
    It must therefore be temporal; but in that case it has to have a creator. But if the God who is its father cannot at the same time be its creator, then there must be its creator, then there must be another creator besides that God the father; but in that case, this other creator will be the one true creator because it was through his power that the first one was able to beget its son. This will raise the number of gods to four.
    No wonder than that the Quran said about those who claimed that Allah has a child. “You have indeed come with something most monstrous, of which the skies almost burst, the earth split asunder, and the mountains fall down in utter ruin. All this because of their attributing a child to Allah."

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    Youtro's Avatar
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    Gosh.. add a TL;DR :|



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    The creator is Chuck Norris.

    Click this to see the Happy Holidays Image Titles
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    Once again you use Quran as your proof/justification instead of scientific facts
    Argument is invalid

    @Lehsyrus @Doc @Empire @Ethereal
    Commence total annihilation?
    Quote Originally Posted by Extravagant View Post
    The problem is that we're people. People are shitty beings, you just gotta keep that in mind.
    "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." - Richard Dawkins
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Lehsyrus View Post
    Troll nomination. Allah and Muhammad for 1400 years of bullshit.

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    YOU. ARE. A. MORON.

    The Qur'an is the "word of god". The Qur'an is written on paper. The word of God is on paper. Therefore, paper is God.

    ALL HAIL PAPER.

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    Jesus was origamied for your sins. Worship The Holy Papyrus or burn very quickly.


    Last edited by Doc; 02-07-2013 at 03:30 AM.

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    mr.hesham's Avatar
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    Gosh.. add a TL;DR :|
    what !!!!!
    The creator is Chuck Norris
    oh really
    Once again you use Quran as your proof/justification instead of scientific facts
    Argument is invalid
    @Lehsyrus @Doc @Empire @Ethereal
    Commence total annihilation?
    Dear sister,
    There are many scientific evidence And I think there are threads here Prove my point of view And I'll get you some later
    There are many miracles in the Quran Prove that Quran is the word of God
    And if you want I can bring a Debates
    Prove what I say
    YOU. ARE. A. MORON.

    The Qur'an is the "word of god". The Qur'an is written on paper. The word of God is on paper. Therefore, paper is God.

    ALL HAIL PAPER.
    Your answer proves my words
    You do not find any response only this
    Every heavenly books written on the papers
    But different writings
    I challenge you now and in front of everyone To find any error in the Qur'an
    Jesus was origamied for your sins. Worship The Holy Papyrus or burn very quickly.
    are you believe that Jesus is God And believes in the Trinity
    If you believe in this
    Give me one explanation of the Trinity people can believe it
    If you really believe that Christ was crucified Even though he is a machine
    Where your mind
    If you believe that Christ is God
    With that he was born from his mother's womb
    We can not deny that Christ's birth was a miracle
    But he is prophet of God And is not God

    Last edited by mr.hesham; 02-06-2013 at 08:43 AM.

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    666HiddenMaster666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.hesham View Post
    Dear sister,
    There are many scientific evidence And I think there are threads here Prove my point of view And I'll get you some later
    There are many miracles in the Quran Prove that Quran is the word of God
    And if you want I can bring a Debates
    Prove what I say
    Rules
    1. Use science to prove it without using the Quran at all
    2. Do not copy and paste from some website, or else you automatically lose
    3. Use "replay with quote" us so we can be notified of your response
    @Lehsyrus@Doc
    Quote Originally Posted by Extravagant View Post
    The problem is that we're people. People are shitty beings, you just gotta keep that in mind.
    "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." - Richard Dawkins
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Lehsyrus View Post
    Troll nomination. Allah and Muhammad for 1400 years of bullshit.

  9. #9
    Hardstyle is more than music, it's a way of life.
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    Lol, ALL HAIL PAPER

    Windows 8 Users Group Click Here:



  10. #10
    mr.hesham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666HiddenMaster666 View Post


    Rules
    1. Use science to prove it without using the Quran at all
    2. Do not copy and paste from some website, or else you automatically lose
    3. Use "replay with quote" us so we can be notified of your response
    @Lehsyrus@Doc
    There are many scientific evidence
    See, for example, to the Sunnah
    Each and every hadith Proven by modern science now
    You can search and audit
    I would not say that looking at the Qur'an
    Chose Any Hadith, you might be surprised him
    And look in the scientific literature
    For example, there Hadith says
    If signed flies in the vessel of one puts it all then posed, in one of its wings healing and in other disease
    Now modern science confirms that in one of the wings of the fly poison In the other wing medicine
    And for example, the prohibition on pork
    Modern science confirms that eating pork harmful
    There are lots and lots and lots
    For more
    Quran English language interpreter
    The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    &
    Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar
    &
    Articles and FAQs about Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), Quran, Hadith, Woman, Fiqh and Fatwa.
    You can search in more scientific references
    When research and audit will find the truth
    &
    In your signature
    Troll nomination. Allah and Muhammad for 1400 years of bullshit.
    1400 years ago no one knew any of the information that has been saying in the Hadith and proven by modern science



    ---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by remcov View Post
    Lol, ALL HAIL PAPER
    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha



  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.hesham View Post

    There are many scientific evidence
    See, for example, to the Sunnah
    Each and every hadith Proven by modern science now
    You can search and audit
    I would not say that looking at the Qur'an
    Chose Any Hadith, you might be surprised him
    And look in the scientific literature
    For example, there Hadith says
    If signed flies in the vessel of one puts it all then posed, in one of its wings healing and in other disease
    Now modern science confirms that in one of the wings of the fly poison In the other wing medicine
    And for example, the prohibition on pork
    Modern science confirms that eating pork harmful
    There are lots and lots and lots
    For more
    Quran English language interpreter
    The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    &
    Dr. Zaghloul El-Naggar
    &
    Articles and FAQs about Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), Quran, Hadith, Woman, Fiqh and Fatwa.
    You can search in more scientific references
    When research and audit will find the truth
    &
    In your signature

    1400 years ago no one knew any of the information that has been saying in the Hadith and proven by modern science



    ---------- Post added at 11:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------


    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


    WRONG.

    The "Islamic medical studies" done on the wings of flies are completely false. They do not even make sense in modern blmicrobiology. They "claim" that one wing contains harmful pathogens, while the other contains Actinomyces, however Actinomyces are OPPERTUNISTIC PATHOGENS, meaning they only reside on a carrier that has a lower count of current pathogens, in which a flea full body has been proven to contain many.

    They also refuse to reveal how they found there to be Actinomyces, whereas every other medical trial done by a non-Islamic medical study board has proven DIFFERENTLY.


    New rule, prove the Qur'an's correspondence to modern science WITHOUT ANY ISLAMIC STUDIES FOCUSING ON PROVING THE QUR'AN. They are ALL bias and absolutely moronic.

    You're debating with someone who's knows their shit, you better step it up with FACTUAL evidence.

  12. #12
    mr.hesham's Avatar
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    WRONG.

    The "Islamic medical studies" done on the wings of flies are completely false. They do not even make sense in modern blmicrobiology. They "claim" that one wing contains harmful pathogens, while the other contains Actinomyces, however Actinomyces are OPPERTUNISTIC PATHOGENS, meaning they only reside on a carrier that has a lower count of current pathogens, in which a flea full body has been proven to contain many.

    They also refuse to reveal how they found there to be Actinomyces, whereas every other medical trial done by a non-Islamic medical study board has proven DIFFERENTLY.


    New rule, prove the Qur'an's correspondence to modern science WITHOUT ANY ISLAMIC STUDIES FOCUSING ON PROVING THE QUR'AN. They are ALL bias and absolutely moronic.

    You're debating with someone who's knows their shit, you better step it up with FACTUAL evidence.
    I told you that looking first in references
    And you can read the rest of the hadith
    Or for Miracles in the Holy Quran
    But I see you afraid of looking because you're afraid from the truth
    But look carefully
    If you would like to get you Debates between scientists from all religions and in a neutral
    &
    You said
    knows their shit
    I have not sinned against you Or anyone else
    But now you say "heir shit"
    This is proof that you do not respect yourself or others
    So I hope that dialogue should be in a neutral and without any words beyond
    With all due respect
    mr.hesham





  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.hesham View Post
    This Quranic argument was paraphrased by some Muslim theologians in a way somewhat like the following: The assumption that there are gods beside the one true God leads to false consequences and must therefore be false.
    You're assuming that there will be false consequences. What makes you think your god is the real one, or existent at all? Saying " The Qu'ran said so" is irrational. What makes you think our creators weren't created by some other entity themselves? Why are you assuming we were created by a godly entity. Why are you assuming we are significant in this universe at all.

    You do realize, religion can never come out on top. It's irrational.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.hesham View Post

    I told you that looking first in references
    And you can read the rest of the hadith
    Or for Miracles in the Holy Quran
    But I see you afraid of looking because you're afraid from the truth
    But look carefully
    If you would like to get you Debates between scientists from all religions and in a neutral
    &
    You said

    I have not sinned against you Or anyone else
    But now you say "heir shit"
    This is proof that you do not respect yourself or others
    So I hope that dialogue should be in a neutral and without any words beyond
    With all due respect
    mr.hesham




    I use profanity, you will need to get used to it because I refuse to classify WORDS as "harmful" in context.

    You have not given a proper rebuttal nor done what I had asked, provig my point.

    Afraid? I've burned a Qur'an right in front of a group of Muslims with a few buddies of mine because they had said the same thing. We had carved pigs on necklaces and the ones we burned the Qur'an in front of who were calling us, an I quote: "pussies" would not even look at us because they were petrified of the pig.

    I hate everybody, however I especially hate those who are brainwashed and foolish to hard scientific evidence. Why is it that every other religion can coexist when it comes to science in a renowned university setting EXCEPT for Islam? Why is it that Islamic base schools findings are always completely different than these exotic universal diversities when coming from a statistical standpoint? If an Atheist, Christian, and Buddhist can all come to the same conclusion why can a Muslim not have the same conclusion? Because they are TWISTING the facts in a BIAS study to prove something that has already been disproving, causing desperation, of which people like yourself believe because that is what is fed to you for the majority of your life.

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    This guy is just an idiot.

    My religion is true because my book says its true is not a valid debate.


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