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  1. #271
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Yes they are wrong. Why are you talking about Islam when you know very little? When fighting is permitted in Islam: http://www.mpgh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=841011
    Uh.....I wouldn't post that if I were you.....

    The first page alone shows how bad that argument is.


  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    When fighting is permitted in Islam:
    [2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
    [2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

    If "Allah" allows you to fight against the aggressor until the aggression ends, who determines what level of retribution the aggressors must go through and if the "aggressions" never end are you allowed to wipe out an entire people? The term "self-defense" is too broad to simply throw out when it is the extremists and those who read the Quran who supervise how far "self-defense" goes.

    Edit: It's subjective.
    "A Man Who Is Too Afraid To Admit His Fears Is A Man Who Won't Overcome Them.
    There Is Liberty In Confession And Freedom In Acknowledgment."


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  3. #273
    robinvanpersie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud_9 View Post


    [2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.
    [2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

    If "Allah" allows you to fight against the aggressor until the aggression ends, who determines what level of retribution the aggressors must go through and if the "aggressions" never end are you allowed to wipe out an entire people? The term "self-defense" is too broad to simply throw out when it is the extremists and those who read the Quran who supervise how far "self-defense" goes.

    Edit: It's subjective.
    But it isn't and it is crystal clear and very simple. I am not sure if you read the other verses in the thread:

    [8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

    [4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.
    As soon as they stop fighting so should you. If they continue to fight and you manage to restrain them so that they cannot fight then going further is clearly aggressing. Every Muslim educated on Islam know that groups like ISIS are not following Islam, they are not even wrongly interpreting it just not following it. You cannot wrongly interpret these verses in the Quran: http://www.mpgh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=841011
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  4. #274
    Empire's Avatar
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    Watch how stupid you sound.
    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    As soon as they stop fighting so should you.
    As soon as you have total victory you should stop!
    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    If they continue to fight and you manage to restrain them so that they cannot fight then going further is clearly aggressing.
    Clearly, then American in the middle east is still justified because they can fight back, just poorly.


    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Every Muslim educated on Islam know that groups like ISIS are not following Islam,[/url]
    Given what you just said, they are perfectly within their rights to continue "fighting".

    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    you cannot wrongly interpret these verses in the Quran: http://www.mpgh.net/forum/showthread.php?t=841011
    Links thread in which on the first page he put several wrongly interpreted verses.
    Last edited by Empire; 02-02-2015 at 06:21 PM.


  5. #275
    robinvanpersie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    [COLOR="Black"]Watch how stupid you sound.


    As soon as you have total victory you should stop!
    You are the one making yourself look stupid. The verse says:

    [8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

    Yet you somehow interpret it as soon as you have "total victory." Where did you see the words?

    I get it you are obsessed with Islam and you want to remain ignorant on it. Just don't get involved with your ignorance when I am trying to explain it to others.

  6. #276
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    You are the one making yourself look stupid. The verse says:

    [8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

    Yet you somehow interpret it as soon as you have "total victory." Where did you see the words?

    I get it you are obsessed with Islam and you want to remain ignorant on it. Just don't get involved with your ignorance when I am trying to explain it to others.
    http://quran.com/8/61

    Because it's "if they incline to peace"

    So in all fairness, continual war is justified as long as they do not admit defeat.
    (i.e. total victory)
    ------------------------

    You, in effect, justified both America's wars and the terrorist at the same time.

    GJ.


  7. #277
    robinvanpersie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post

    http://quran.com/8/61

    Because it's "if they incline to peace"

    So in all fairness, continual war is justified as long as they do not admit defeat.
    (i.e. total victory)
    ------------------------

    You, in effect, justified both America's wars and the terrorist at the same time.

    GJ.
    Here is the verse:

    And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. -8:61

    Where did you see the words "as long as they do not admit defeat?" I am starting to think there is something mentally wrong with you.

    Again you are making yourself look stupid.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  8. #278
    Snake's Avatar
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    We're attacking the Islam, whilst in honest reality, the United States has an execution of prisoners(even innocent ones)in a zoo-like environment, but you know, the muslims are the barbarians
    Need a custom image title? Check out my thread





  9. #279
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    We're attacking the Islam, whilst in honest reality, the United States has an execution of prisoners(even innocent ones)in a zoo-like environment, but you know, the muslims are the barbarians
    O_O

    Yes, the US has the death penalty. Is that argument against that?

    And ofc prison conditions should be better, but I doubt you could convince a population to take better care of criminals who murdered their loved ones.
    (and just for the record, Muslims *cough* ISIS *cough* are executing people for no crimes whatsoever. At least the US system has the decency to accuse people of crimes).
    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Here is the verse:

    And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. -8:61

    Where did you see the words "as long as they do not admit defeat?" I am starting to think there is something mentally wrong with you.

    Again you are making yourself look stupid.

    Tell me, what do you think "if they incline to peace" means?

    Because it says "if they admit defeat then don't hurt them". Great. That's essentially conquest 101 and retaining your war booty.



    You know how much you cry about palestine and Iraq? Well they didn't incline to peace.

    What about how ISIS is killing thousands of people? They didn't incline to peace.
    -----------------

    It's pretty fucking stupid to not understand that this verse means "keep fighting until they give up" which basically justifies total war.


  10. #280
    殺す必要がある唯一のものは殺されるために準備され人 々である。
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    tl;dr.

    I'm assuming because everyone assumes a Muslim is going to blow/fuck shit up.
    I personally don't care about those things. I'd rather watch the world die. Nothing would bring me greater joy.

    P.S. I'm not a Muslim. I just hate everyone.

  11. #281
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitokiri~ View Post
    tl;dr.

    I'm assuming because everyone assumes a Muslim is going to blow/fuck shit up.
    I personally don't care about those things. I'd rather watch the world die. Nothing would bring me greater joy.

    P.S. I'm not a Muslim. I just hate everyone.

    Easy there edgemaster.


  12. #282
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    @Empire
    Love reading your posts;

    Always full of information (correct information, not conjecture and interpretations but actual reason, logic, and basic understanding used in them)

    Hate seeing people post about shit they don't know about but try to act like they do.
    Example:
    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    You are the one making yourself look stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
    You can't be omniscient if you're: spaceless and timeless. You can't know anything if you aren't there to find it out. Omniscience must come from omnipresence to learn things. Think we get our education off sitting in a room looking at a wall? Nope. We attend school to acquire knowledge, to learn new things. We can't learn those new things unless we're there to be taught them. Teaching ourselves or not, we're somewhere to learn it. If he's no-where, how does he know?

    If you're omnipresent, THEN and only then can you be omniscient. Being omnipresent while spaceless and timeless isn't possible; that would just be a paradox. Therefore, this shit:
    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    the Omniscient.
    is false.

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  14. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Tell me, what do you think "if they incline to peace" means?

    Because it says "if they admit defeat then don't hurt them". Great. That's essentially conquest 101 and retaining your war booty.



    You know how much you cry about palestine and Iraq? Well they didn't incline to peace.

    What about how ISIS is killing thousands of people? They didn't incline to peace.
    -----------------

    It's pretty fucking stupid to not understand that this verse means "keep fighting until they give up" which basically justifies total war.[/COLOR]
    Incline to peace means when they stop fighting.

    Where in the verse did it say, "if they admit defeat then don't hurt them." You are seeing things.

    Palestinians, Iraqis and the Muslims killed by ISIS were not fighting anyone.

    You are so delusional that you want it to say what you want making you see words that are not there.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  15. #284
    robinvanpersie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarnix View Post
    @Empire
    Love reading your posts;

    Always full of information (correct information, not conjecture and interpretations but actual reason, logic, and basic understanding used in them)

    Hate seeing people post about shit they don't know about but try to act like they do.
    Example:



    You can't be omniscient if you're: spaceless and timeless. You can't know anything if you aren't there to find it out. Omniscience must come from omnipresence to learn things. Think we get our education off sitting in a room looking at a wall? Nope. We attend school to acquire knowledge, to learn new things. We can't learn those new things unless we're there to be taught them. Teaching ourselves or not, we're somewhere to learn it. If he's no-where, how does he know?

    If you're omnipresent, THEN and only then can you be omniscient. Being omnipresent while spaceless and timeless isn't possible; that would just be a paradox. Therefore, this shit:

    is false.
    You are comparing us with God. God is not a person in Islam. God doesn't need to be anywhere in order to know everything. God is beyond our level of understanding.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  16. #285
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Incline to peace means when they stop fighting.

    Where in the verse did it say, "if they admit defeat then don't hurt them." You are seeing things.
    Again, "when they stop fighting"

    So basically "initiate war, and if they fight back at all keep going"

    GJ buddy! You just threw your whole "self defense" Islam shtick out the window!
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    also: if they admit defeat then don't hurt them. Incline to peace means when they stop fighting.

    These two are pretty much identical. If they incline to peace(i.e. if they admit defeat and give up) then stop fighting.

    What do you think peace means when you are at war? That you sign a peace treaty and no compensation is given? That both sides just back down and go back to their villages? How utterly naive you are robin.


    Edit: The other interpretation is that if war arises, then "they did not incline to peace" which holy fuck is that justifying even MORE war.

    Imagine this: You have a village frame another village for an act of violence against them.(easy stuff). Then, village 1 is now justified(through Islam) for committing genocide against village 2.

    Imagine this: Village 1 and 2.
    Village 1 performs a small raid on Village 2's caravans.
    Village 2 attacks village 1.
    Village 1 survives, retaliates, and wipes out all of village 2's leaders.
    (oh wait, that's the story of muhammad, my bad).

    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Palestinians, Iraqis and the Muslims killed by ISIS were not fighting anyone..
    Yes, but I'm sure the Palestinian/Iraqi governments were resisting ISIS, that they did not admit defeat to ISIS. Effectively, the Quran justified the murder of civilians because it can be interpreted(correctly) in this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    You are comparing us with God. God is not a person in Islam. God doesn't need to be anywhere in order to know everything. God is beyond our level of understanding.

    If you can't understand God then how do you even justify stating he is or is not something?

    That's like me saying "I don't know" and "I do know" in the same breath.

    Sorry, you're just too easy.

    Last edited by Empire; 02-13-2015 at 06:44 PM.


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