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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    I said people who rape, kill etc. Not sure where you got that idea from? God in the Quran does not say the innocent will be destroyed in hell.


    Not really because you can still choose to believe in whatever God says, just like you and I are doing.


    Belief is not backed up by scientific proof but a different kind of proof. Do you believe you had a great great great great great great great great great great grandad? You cannot observe him or do any experiments to prove his existence but you believe he existed because it is logical. This is the kind of proof for belief, which is something many atheists don't understand because of atheist propaganda mixing science with belief by the likes of Dawkins. Also it is up to each person to find their own proof, not to rely on others as Dawkins makes it out to be.
    Science doesn't prove anything buddy. It merely says this might be a better option because there is more evidence. There is a lot more evidence of your lineage going back 11 generations. It isn't too far back. Humanity has existed for thousands of years and 11 generations wouldn't even be a thousand years. Science doesn't disprove Allah, if you're a scientist, you would just say that saying Allah creating everything is too simple! If he did great, if he didn't great as well. Nature will come out the way it does, whether it's infinite layers of an onions we can keep peeling but never get to the core, or whether there are millions of layers of onions and we will eventually reach the center, it doesn't matter. The joy in science isn't finding the ultimate philosophical answers or proving whether Allah exists or doesn't, it's the process of moving. In chaos, the only order is movement. The world is made of chaos, for example millions and millions of cells competing to create you. Movement is the only thing pure, and if you choose to decide Allah is the answer to life... Boo! you suck, you're boring! There's so much more to life than some dude that might or might not exist. Go out and learn about something awesome with your life!
    Last edited by noob555; 06-07-2014 at 07:53 PM.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Except you can't. Information about your religion is not and has not been available to all of mankind. Therefore God sends people to hell for a situation outside of their control.

    People who have not heard about Islam are not sent to hell according to Islam.
    Brief Answer

    Those who do not believe in Islam can be classified into two groups:

    1. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Muqassir’ (lit. ‘culpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has reached and who have understood its truthfulness. However, they are not prepared to accept the truth due to their obstinacy and stubbornness. This group deserves to be punished in Hell.

    2. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Qasir’ (lit. ‘inculpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has not reached, or it has been presented to them in a very incomplete and untruthful manner. Such people will attain salvation if they are truthful to their own religion.http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-re...slims-and-hell

    I would say you lie are in the second category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Belief is not backed up by any proof, belief is: "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists". It is the acceptance by a person that something is true, it does not prove anything. The logic of the Quran and of Islam is just as faulty as Christianity's, so in a sense your belief of said events or in the Quran being "true" is really just your opinion, not a fact.

    There is nothing scientific or logical that proves the religion of Islam to be true.
    Everyone's belief is backed up by proof which the person considers sufficient proof for their belief. The proof is going to be different for each person because each person's life is different and we don't all share the same personal experiences and we don't all equally know about faith and Islam. You are atheist because you consider your reasons as proof for your belief, which I don't because personally, Islam explains it.

    Christian view of Jesus: Jesus pbuh is God and the son of God who came to die for all your sins before you even committed them. You will be forgiven for all your sins for just believing in Jesus, which defeats the whole purpose of judgement day. God has sent messengers since Adam pbuh and then suddenly decided to send himself and his son in one.

    Islamic view: Jesus pbuh was a Jew who came to restore the message of the Tawrat (Torah) which people forgot about. He was a messenger just like all of the other messengers of God.

    Which one is the more logical? That is why Christians leave Christianity as they become educated in the west because modern day Christianity has been corrupted by man and the message has been distorted. Whereas Islam is actually growing the west, 5000 convert in the UK every year alone. That is your opinion that you have made even though you haven't read the Quran.

    Here is why I believe in Islam and why it is not like any religion. Islamic concept of God:

    Islam says there is only one God who we cannot imagine what He looks like. No one has seen God so therefore any images of God must be man made, this proves all religions are man made apart from Judaism and Islam. Since these two religions don't have an image for God such as idols, and don't worship any people as God in the case of Christians. But if you study Islam and Judaism then you will find they have the same main message. To believe in the one God, and their teachings on morality is exactly the same: no sex before marriage, both can't eat pork, etc. There is a slight difference between Judaism and Islam because the original Torah which contained the same message as a the Quran has been lost. There is and has been only one God, just different man made ideas about God from man made religions. Then people like Dawkins uses this as propaganda by making people think all religions are the same.
    Last edited by robinvanpersie; 06-09-2014 at 03:01 AM.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rance-sama View Post
    You don't know it yourself as apparent from what you posted. The Mecca were defending themselves and that verse was used to encourage them to fight them with the odds stacked against them. http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#005.059.314
    They were Meccans as well who were given the choice to leave Islam or to leave Mecca. Some of the Muslims who decided to stay and hide their faith were then persecuted and oppressed. The Meccans who left then went back to fight the oppressors. It is like the US government saying that all atheists must stop their belief or they must leave USA.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  4. #139
    robinvanpersie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noob555 View Post
    Science doesn't prove anything buddy. It merely says this might be a better option because there is more evidence. There is a lot more evidence of your lineage going back 11 generations. It isn't too far back. Humanity has existed for thousands of years and 11 generations wouldn't even be a thousand years. Science doesn't disprove Allah, if you're a scientist, you would just say that saying Allah creating everything is too simple! If he did great, if he didn't great as well. Nature will come out the way it does, whether it's infinite layers of an onions we can keep peeling but never get to the core, or whether there are millions of layers of onions and we will eventually reach the center, it doesn't matter. The joy in science isn't finding the ultimate philosophical answers or proving whether Allah exists or doesn't, it's the process of moving. In chaos, the only order is movement. The world is made of chaos, for example millions and millions of cells competing to create you. Movement is the only thing pure, and if you choose to decide Allah is the answer to life... Boo! you suck, you're boring! There's so much more to life than some dude that might or might not exist. Go out and learn about something awesome with your life!
    If there is evidence then that is proof. Learning how things work does not mean that God doesn't create it. Islam says God created everything and has told Muslims to go learn about how things work. Islam teaches heavily the importance of seeking knowledge:

    "Are those who have knowledge and those who have no knowledge alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful. " (Quran, 39:9)

    "Verily, the reward is equal to intellect."

    "The most perfect of men in intellect is the best of them in ethics."

    "Intellect is the pillar of man."

    "Intellect is the guide of the believer."

    "The perfection of intellect is in three (things): humbleness for Allah, good certainty, and silence except for good."

    "Ignorance is in three (things): Haughtiness, the intense of dispute, and the ignorance in Allah."

    "To consider knowledge very much opens intellect."

    "Knowledge is a shield, truthfulness is might, ignorance is abasement, understanding is glory, generosity is success, good behavior causes friendship, he who has knowledge about his time, ambiguous things do not attack him, and determination is mistrust."

    "Whoever attacks a matter without knowledge cuts off his own nose."

    "Verily, knowledge is a lock and its key is the question."

    Imam Jaffar Al Sadiq

    Big Bang Theory - Proposed by Georges Lemaître, a Roman Catholic priest who was an astronomer.
    Theory of Evolution - Proposed by Charles Darwin, who was a Christian at the time.
    Invention of the first vaccine - Edward Jenner, a Christian.
    Invention of the first antibiotic - Alexander Fleming, a Christian.
    Discovery of Gravity - Isaac Newton, considered to be the greatest mathematician of all time and also was a Christian.

    The idea that religious people are anti-science and they can't learn how things work because they believe God creates everything, is just atheistic propaganda spread by people such as Richard Dawkins. I repeat, learning how things work does not disprove that God created it.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to robinvanpersie For This Useful Post:

    -Lame (06-09-2014),Snake (06-09-2014),Zuhrain (06-09-2014)

  6. #140
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    Ignoring the posts above and just answering the topic title:

    I've spoke about this with an imam, and I must say, Islam is indeed a peaceful religion.
    Not only peaceful, but it is also rightful. You can't kill anyone, nor hurt anyone in the Islam for no reason.
    Lets just say you throw a rock at someone, then that person has the right to throw a rock back at you the exact same way if he wants to. Seems kind of logical, doesn't it?

    You can't blame a religion for the acts of raging people. The amount of those people in the islam is higher than the other religions, but then again, Islam is the religion being in war most these days isn't it? There surely are enough acts of brutal brutal treatments in the old Christians days and whatsoever.

    Let me put down a few war rules in the Islam here too, one which any other religion does not follow from what I know:

    "Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

    If a true muslims follows the Quran, he will do everything that part here says, how can you then proceed to call the Islam violent?
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  7. #141
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    Isn't it possible to be a good person without the belief in Allah? (Or any god for that matter)
    So no matter how much good you've done to the world you're still going to hell for choosing not to follow Islam.

    Now that isn't logical and is the main reason why I question it.

  8. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Ignoring the posts above and just answering the topic title:

    I've spoke about this with an imam, and I must say, Islam is indeed a peaceful religion.
    Not only peaceful, but it is also rightful. You can't kill anyone, nor hurt anyone in the Islam for no reason.
    Lets just say you throw a rock at someone, then that person has the right to throw a rock back at you the exact same way if he wants to. Seems kind of logical, doesn't it?

    You can't blame a religion for the acts of raging people. The amount of those people in the islam is higher than the other religions, but then again, Islam is the religion being in war most these days isn't it? There surely are enough acts of brutal brutal treatments in the old Christians days and whatsoever.

    Let me put down a few war rules in the Islam here too, one which any other religion does not follow from what I know:

    "Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

    If a true muslims follows the Quran, he will do everything that part here says, how can you then proceed to call the Islam violent?
    Allowing and instigating violence in retaliation is still allowing and instigating violence. Someone stabs me, I stab them back. That is still an act of violence.

  9. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post


    Allowing and instigating violence in retaliation is still allowing and instigating violence. Someone stabs me, I stab them back. That is still an act of violence.
    No, it is not instigating violence. Infact, it is actually deterring violence. If you know that if you stab someone, you'll get punished, then you obviously won't. It is a rightful manner of justice. If a person decides to stab someone, then the same person should have the right to stab him back. He shouldn't, but he has the right to without getting a punishment from Allah(swt). If the person does not do it himself, an other person has the right to punish him within the guidelines.
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  10. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    They were Meccans as well who were given the choice to leave Islam or to leave Mecca. Some of the Muslims who decided to stay and hide their faith were then persecuted and oppressed. The Meccans who left then went back to fight the oppressors. It is like the US government saying that all atheists must stop their belief or they must leave USA.
    The Meeca were okay with him spreading his religion, they weren't "oppressing" any religion. The thing is Muhammad was the one oppressing others, he insulted other religions and the followers and just wouldn't stop acting like a complete fucking asshole to others. They told him to stop or they'll have to punish him, he still continued acting like a fucking asshole for another dozen years. When the Muslims came back later not to fight the oppressors but to steal from Mecca caravans for a source of income. Oh, and of course Allah "spoke" to Muhammad and gave him 1/5th of whatever the Muslims stole from Mecca.

  11. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rance-sama View Post
    The Meeca were okay with him spreading his religion, they weren't "oppressing" any religion. The thing is Muhammad was the one oppressing others, he insulted other religions and the followers and just wouldn't stop acting like a complete fucking asshole to others. They told him to stop or they'll have to punish him, he still continued acting like a fucking asshole for another dozen years. When the Muslims came back later not to fight the oppressors but to steal from Mecca caravans for a source of income. Oh, and of course Allah "spoke" to Muhammad and gave him 1/5th of whatever the Muslims stole from Mecca.
    I don't know where you heard that. I hope you realize it was the local population who set up local restricts for muslims, innocent or not, who tortured and murdered muslims, and who tried to kill the prophet himself. The prophet didn't insult anyone nor any religion. Infact, he was the one who spread the positive things about them, since Mecca was filled with polytheďsm who pushed away the other book-based religions.
    If it wasn't the prophet and the muslims who showed the most respect for the other religions, then I don't know.
    Muhammed(as) didn't use the mecca caravans to steal income. He did it to block their ability of attacking them. They had a peace contract for ten years which the kafirs had broken by attacking and killing muslims. Then and only then he engaged in combat. Unlike the kafirs, he had clear disciplinary set up combat rules, they didn't do what the kafirs did. And other then that, hell, he had a great source of food and whatever all set up. They were living a fine life until they were being terrorized by the kafirs who didn't like the fact that they got away with it. They offered Muhammed(as) to become the sultan of the place, must be for a reason, no?
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  12. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post

    I don't know where you heard that. I hope you realize it was the local population who set up local restricts for muslims, innocent or not, who tortured and murdered muslims, and who tried to kill the prophet himself. The prophet didn't insult anyone nor any religion. Infact, he was the one who spread the positive things about them, since Mecca was filled with polytheďsm who pushed away the other book-based religions.
    If it wasn't the prophet and the muslims who showed the most respect for the other religions, then I don't know.
    Muhammed(as) didn't use the mecca caravans to steal income. He did it to block their ability of attacking them. They had a peace contract for ten years which the kafirs had broken by attacking and killing muslims. Then and only then he engaged in combat. Unlike the kafirs, he had clear disciplinary set up combat rules, they didn't do what the kafirs did. And other then that, hell, he had a great source of food and whatever all set up. They were living a fine life until they were being terrorized by the kafirs who didn't like the fact that they got away with it. They offered Muhammed(as) to become the sultan of the place, must be for a reason, no?
    There's so much wrong with this post that I cringed. Here read this and this and get a good grasp of your own religion before debating it.

  13. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rance-sama View Post
    There's so much wrong with this post that I cringed. Here read this and this and get a good grasp of your own religion before debating it.
    I have read the Quran, I know what I'm talking about, lol. Muhammed(as) did not offend any religions.
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  14. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Muhammed(as) did not offend any religions.
    [The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow. He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 183).

    Yep, he didn't offend anyone. He also never killed women, children or the elderly according to you.

  15. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rance-sama View Post
    [The Meccans] said they had never known anything like the trouble they had endured from this fellow. He had declared their mode of life foolish, insulted their forefathers, reviled their religion, divided the community and cursed their gods (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 183).

    Yep, he didn't offend anyone. He also never killed women, children or the elderly according to you.
    http://www.prophetofislam.com/what_did_he_do.php
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  16. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rance-sama View Post
    The Meeca were okay with him spreading his religion, they weren't "oppressing" any religion. The thing is Muhammad was the one oppressing others, he insulted other religions and the followers and just wouldn't stop acting like a complete fucking asshole to others. They told him to stop or they'll have to punish him, he still continued acting like a fucking asshole for another dozen years. When the Muslims came back later not to fight the oppressors but to steal from Mecca caravans for a source of income. Oh, and of course Allah "spoke" to Muhammad and gave him 1/5th of whatever the Muslims stole from Mecca.
    Seriously is this a joke or something? Where did you read this? At the end of the day respect is not brought, it is earned. No man is more respected than prophet Muhammad pbuh. No other man being insulted brings pain to 1.6 billion people. Here are some quotes from non-muslims who have actually studied his life. So tell me how one does all those things you claim he (pbuh) did and earn so much respect?

    "I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924"
    Last edited by robinvanpersie; 06-09-2014 at 02:34 PM.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

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