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  1. #211
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post

    I honestly don't understand where you got that 'justified by islam' fact.
    Do you really think I could go out there, abuse all non-muslims all I want, behead them all I want, and then come back and get no punishment?
    Who thought like that was Anders Breivik, and I think we can all agree that he is a lunatic. So why should the muslims who did exactly the same thing not face the same lunatic state, but be accepted as perfectly humane muslims?
    Their actions are not justified by islam. They might think so, but its not like that.
    No punishment from the religion nor the country?
    The islam was actually one of the reasons muslims held themselves in. Like really, war crimes happen, that is a fact. You can't just shove it all to islams side because the whole group goes screaming out allahu akbar.

    It might sound as something ignorant to say, but its the truth. You should try to look at it from our perspective.
    We all have those annoying retards who fuck it all up for everyone, we despise them, they aren't following the rules, and the other side despises them.
    Your perspective is that of an apologist.

    These people are already labeled muslims, both by their communities and those outside of it. You are claiming that they "aren't real muslims" so that you can try and save Islam some face.

    Again, No True Scotsman.

    That's all you've been doing. "No REAL muslims would do XYZ!!"


    Btw Anders Breivek would be a Christian still, regardless of his crime.

    Last edited by Empire; 06-25-2014 at 10:19 PM.


  2. #212
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  3. #213
    robinvanpersie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TitanDrive View Post
    Also I would like to add that nearly 3,000 people around the world died during 9/11 (according to BBC). And 9/11 was planned and created by mainly Saudi Arabian people. But what did we decide to do? We decided to attack nations that weren't even involved in the attacks. Funny, huh? We are so obsessed with 9/11 and avenging the deaths of people then, when we aren't even attacking nations INVOLVED in it. The most curious part is, Bush has investments in Saudi Arabia. If the U.S. entered Saudi Arabia, the Arab nation would be affected, and Bush's investments would be worthless. But if the U.S. entered Iraq and Afghanistan, the second Bush could avenge the loss his father faced in Iraq as president AND destroy any companies that rival Bush's investments.

    And we killed FAR more innocent civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries just to "avenge 9/11."

    "The ongoing conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan have taken a tremendous toll on the people of those countries. At the very least, 174,000 civilians have been determined to have died violent deaths as a result of the war as of April 2014. The actual number of deaths, direct and indirect, as a result of the wars are many times higher than this figure."

    http://costsofwar.org/article/civili...ed-and-wounded
    Great post, finally someone who understands whats going on. It is ironic that more Americans were killed in the "war on terror" than on 9/11. Officially 4489 US soldiers have been killed, 32021 wounded, and tens of thousands are suffering from post traumatic stress caused by war.

    I will make a thread when I get the time to fully explain where the extremists come from and why the west doesn't invade Saudi Arabia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Your perspective is that of an apologist.

    These people are already labeled muslims, both by their communities and those outside of it. You are claiming that they "aren't real muslims" so that you can try and save Islam some face.

    Again, No True Scotsman.

    That's all you've been doing. "No REAL muslims would do XYZ!!"


    Btw Anders Breivek would be a Christian still, regardless of his crime.

    Religion is different from things such as race or nationality because no matter what your actions are you will still be part of that race or nationality. However with religion it is different, if you do certain things it takes you out of the fold of that religion. We are not saying there are not any bad Muslims, obviously there are as with any group. Things like insulting people doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam, but things like purposefully killing innocent people does.

    The problem is that you don't understand the definition of a Muslim. Being Muslim is not just about belief it is also about your actions, because it is your actions that shows your belief. It doesn't matter what you claim your beliefs are, if your actions are the opposite then it shows you don't truly believe that in the first place.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  4. #214
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Religion is different from things such as race or nationality because no matter what your actions are you will still be part of that race or nationality. However with religion it is different, if you do certain things it takes you out of the fold of that religion. We are not saying there are not any bad Muslims, obviously there are as with any group. Things like insulting people doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam, but things like purposefully killing innocent people does.

    The problem is that you don't understand the definition of a Muslim. Being Muslim is not just about belief it is also about your actions, because it is your actions that shows your belief. It doesn't matter what you claim your beliefs are, if your actions are the opposite then it shows you don't truly believe that in the first place.
    :/

    The argument is that religion is a special case because you say so.

    You are still using the fallacy regardless if you want to admit it.


  5. #215
    noob555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    You are just repeating the same thing over again. Read what I said carefully:
    Islam says God created everything and has told Muslims to go learn about how things work

    That's anti science buddy

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    :/

    The argument is that religion is a special case because you say so.

    You are still using the fallacy regardless if you want to admit it.
    It is not just religion. Another example is someone who claims to be a good citizen. There are certain things such as breaking the law that makes someone a bad citizen regardless of whether they claim they are a good citizen or a bad one. The same with religion, if you do certain things it takes you out of the fold of that religion regardless of whether you claim to be part of that religion. However it is different for nationality or race, because your actions cannot change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by noob555 View Post
    Islam says God created everything and has told Muslims to go learn about how things work

    That's anti science buddy
    No it isn't, that is just atheist propaganda. Anti science is if someone is against learning how created things work, regardless of what his beliefs are about the creation.

    Islam and science addresses the relationships between the religion of Islam, its adherents' (Muslims) communities and the activities known collectively as science. As with all other branches of human knowledge, science, from an Islamic standpoint, [is] the study of nature [as stemming from?] Tawhid, the Islamic conception of the "Oneness" of God. In Islam, nature is not seen as something separate but as an integral part of a holistic outlook on God, humanity, the world and the cosmos. These links imply a sacred aspect to Muslims' pursuit of scientific knowledge, as nature itself is viewed in the Qur'an as a compilation of signs pointing to the Divine. It was with this understanding that the pursuit of science, especially prior to the colonization of the Muslim world, was respected in Islamic civilizations. Islam and science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

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  8. #217
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    It is not just religion. Another example is someone who claims to be a good citizen. There are certain things such as breaking the law that makes someone a bad citizen regardless of whether they claim they are a good citizen or a bad one. The same with religion, if you do certain things it takes you out of the fold of that religion regardless of whether you claim to be part of that religion. However it is different for nationality or race, because your actions cannot change that.
    Yeah....here's the thing, they claim they are citizens. Not good or bad.

    There are bad muslims, no?


  9. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Yeah....here's the thing, they claim they are citizens. Not good or bad.

    There are bad muslims, no?
    I was using the analogy good citizen not citizen for Muslim. Yes there are bad Muslims, people who don't follow all of the teachings of Islam. But certain things such as purposefully killing innocent people, takes you out of the fold of Islam as it is a major sin.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  10. #219
    rashdash's Avatar
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    Guys just leave him be. No use as its given in the Quran - V 18:2.
    Please end this discussion.

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  12. #220
    Empire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    I was using the analogy good citizen not citizen for Muslim. Yes there are bad Muslims, people who don't follow all of the teachings of Islam. But certain things such as purposefully killing innocent people, takes you out of the fold of Islam as it is a major sin.
    You miss the point of your analogy. At the end of the day they are still citizens, regardless if they are good or bad.

    In a cultural/societal sense, they are still muslims. Sure they might not enter heaven, but they are still muslims according to society.

    Deenislam.co.uk - Sufism

    70 major sins, I could argue a fair amount of those Muhammad/Islam broke.
    Last edited by Empire; 07-03-2014 at 01:22 PM.


  13. #221
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    Like first your dad and mum teached you wrong:WE ARE NOT TERRORIST READ A LITTLE BIT ABOUT US READ OUR BOOK KUR'AN AND YOU'LL SEE ALL AND MUHHAMED savs DIDNT KILL ANYONE THE ENEMYS KILLED OUR PEOPLE TO STOP THE SPREADING AND NOBODY NEEDED TO PAY LOOK A MOVIE WHICH IS CALLED "UNDER MUHAMMED ALLEJHI SELLAM'S FLAG" AND YOULL SE THE TRUTH YOUR MOTHER AND FATHER ARE THE ENEMYS OF OUR RELIGION WHICH ARE TEACHING YOU THAT WE ARE TERRORIST NO,YOU ARE BECAUSE YOU JEWS AND CHATOLICS ARE KILLING GAZA MUSLIM PEOPLE AND OTHER MUSLIMS AND THEN LET ME ASK YOU WHY ARE WE THE BIGGEST RELIGION IN THE WORLD AND WHY ARE PEOPLE ACCEPTING ISLAM MILLIONS OF PEOPLE A DAY HM? ANSWER ME THAT PLEASE?

  14. #222
    Amil21_'s Avatar
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    Read Kur'an you musik!

  15. #223
    Jazk's Avatar
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    Its quite easy. The holy book of the islam says that everyone is a muslism, but they havent encountered yet the right path. It tells to be patience until everyone finds the "right path".
    Also, there are few terrorists groups in comparison to the amount of civilians in the Middle East. As in every religion, there's people to tend to be extremely attached to their thoughts, the only thing that differs this from any other religion fanatics, is that some Great Powers aided this terrorists groups to defend their national interests (Remember the Cold War?). For example, USA aided Al-Qaeda to maintan the "democracy" in these regions, what happened next... well, everyone knows it.

  16. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazk View Post
    Its quite easy. The holy book of the islam says that everyone is a muslism, but they havent encountered yet the right path. It tells to be patience until everyone finds the "right path".
    Also, there are few terrorists groups in comparison to the amount of civilians in the Middle East. As in every religion, there's people to tend to be extremely attached to their thoughts, the only thing that differs this from any other religion fanatics, is that some Great Powers aided this terrorists groups to defend their national interests (Remember the Cold War?). For example, USA aided Al-Qaeda to maintan the "democracy" in these regions, what happened next... well, everyone knows it.
    >Everyone is muslim, no one is muslim.
    >Complete misunderstanding of terrorist and islamic influences.


  17. #225
    robinvanpersie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazk View Post
    Its quite easy. The holy book of the islam says that everyone is a muslism, but they havent encountered yet the right path. It tells to be patience until everyone finds the "right path".
    Also, there are few terrorists groups in comparison to the amount of civilians in the Middle East. As in every religion, there's people to tend to be extremely attached to their thoughts, the only thing that differs this from any other religion fanatics, is that some Great Powers aided this terrorists groups to defend their national interests (Remember the Cold War?). For example, USA aided Al-Qaeda to maintan the "democracy" in these regions, what happened next... well, everyone knows it.
    Well said. USA also funded Saddam Hussein to fight Iran. The hypocrisy is just so funny.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

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