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  1. #16
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    Arguing that the bible promotes violence(again, i already responded to the verses you are quoting paradox)?
    -----------
    Just so you guys know: I'm atheist. Arguing Christianity or Judaism does bad stuff too, doesn't prove that Islam doesn't.

    I see a lot of muslims try and pull this off and while yes I do try to correct you, the claim that another religion is "just as bad" doesn't do anything for your argument.
    ---------------


    The "it's out of context but i can't tell you why" excuse is pretty funny though, keep using it.
    "Read the entire quran because I don't have a reply" is also pretty good, but with less effort.

    10 verses and only one apology? Either you guys don't know the context or know it harms your argument.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post
    Yeah sorry bro, but they didn't just fight those who fought them.

    Did the Egyptians fight them? No. However islam conquered Egypt.
    Did the Libyans fight them? No. Islam conquered Libya as well.


    My point is, Islam went in and conquered countries that had no relation whatsoever with Islam. They hardly knew it existed. Islam was spread by the sword as much as it was by ink.
    It is just invitation , you already know that all religions invite other people by that way .. If you looked over what I said , I said that "hey wanted to invite more people ... If they did it like the previous time then they will be killed , punished and etc... What should they do ? Again , make wars or tell the kings of the countries to invite your people to Islam and If they don't want to be Muslims they will pay the Jizyah .."

    I meant that If they invited people in that way , they kings will kill the people who invite the others to Islam ... so they should just send a message to the kings of every country telling them to invite their people to Islam or If you didn't do that we fight you... You got it?
    If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Arguing that the bible promotes violence(again, i already responded to the verses you are quoting paradox)?
    -----------
    Just so you guys know: I'm atheist. Arguing Christianity or Judaism does bad stuff too, doesn't prove that Islam doesn't.

    I see a lot of muslims try and pull this off and while yes I do try to correct you, the claim that another religion is "just as bad" doesn't do anything for your argument.
    ---------------


    The "it's out of context but i can't tell you why" excuse is pretty funny though, keep using it.
    "Read the entire quran because I don't have a reply" is also pretty good, but with less effort.

    10 verses and only one apology? Either you guys don't know the context or know it harms your argument.
    I've just told you to read the entire verses but you keep refusing the fact . So I just decided to let you believe anything you want.
    If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
    Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
    You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.

    -Albert Einstein



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  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    still waiting for a source to prove that they did fight them for no reason at all.
    as i said before if you read it out of context it does not make sense @Empire read the entire passage before you quote the Quran as per your extremely wrong here.
    Do you know nothing about Islam?

    Muhammad and his friends spread islam by going to countries and saying you either convert or you pay jizya.

    Muslim conquests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Read about muhammad's conquests and educate yourself on your own religion a little bit instead of asking for sources.
    Quote Originally Posted by [D]opeDog View Post

    It is just invitation , you already know that all religions invite other people by that way .. If you looked over what I said , I said that "hey wanted to invite more people ... If they did it like the previous time then they will be killed , punished and etc... What should they do ? Again , make wars or tell the kings of the countries to invite your people to Islam and If they don't want to be Muslims they will pay the Jizyah .."

    I meant that If they invited people in that way , they kings will kill the people who invite the others to Islam ... so they should just send a message to the kings of every country telling them to invite their people to Islam or If you didn't do that we fight you... You got it?
    So you're justifying extortion with the fact that you think that if he sent out peaceful missionaries they would be killed?

    Do you think that the death of a hundred missionaries is equal in value to invading an entire country?

    Also, do you know why extortion is wrong?

    "“Religions are, by definition, metaphors, after all: God is a dream, a hope, a woman, an ironist, a father, a city, a house of many rooms, a watchmaker who left his prize chronometer in the desert, someone who loves you—even, perhaps, against all evidence, a celestial being whose only interest is to make sure your football team, army, business, or marriage thrives, prospers, and triumphs over all opposition. Religions are places to stand and look and act, vantage points from which to view the world. So none of this is happening. Such things could not occur. Never a word of it is literally true.” .”
    I was Martin Johnson

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post


    Do you know nothing about Islam?

    Muhammad and his friends spread islam by going to countries and saying you either convert or you pay jizya.

    Muslim conquests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Read about muhammad's conquests and educate yourself on your own religion a little bit instead of asking for sources.


    So you're justifying extortion with the fact that you think that if he sent out peaceful missionaries they would be killed?

    Do you think that the death of a hundred missionaries is equal in value to invading an entire country?

    Also, do you know why extortion is wrong?


    and you are also aware that the he was spreading the message not raging battles against people so they accept islam?



    firstly that is incorrect he never Demanded Jizya untill the fact when the area was under his rule
    think of it like this
    i Live in the Us and u reject to pay you will exile me from there right then and there.
    Before trying to educate me read something about jizya and why did he ask for it.Its not like he went to rome asking for Jizya.
    AND he never raged wars against those who didnt pay Jizya like really what type of reason is that.


    And yes also read the source you provided me ?
    Considering i can assure you that you didn't even look at it
    Last edited by Paradox_x; 01-11-2014 at 12:45 AM.

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by [D]opeDog View Post

    It is just invitation , you already know that all religions invite other people by that way .. If you looked over what I said , I said that "hey wanted to invite more people ... If they did it like the previous time then they will be killed , punished and etc... What should they do ? Again , make wars or tell the kings of the countries to invite your people to Islam and If they don't want to be Muslims they will pay the Jizyah .."

    I meant that If they invited people in that way , they kings will kill the people who invite the others to Islam ... so they should just send a message to the kings of every country telling them to invite their people to Islam or If you didn't do that we fight you... You got it?
    "Invite"

    I'm confused as to what you think that word actual means and it's normal context.


    Because you are already proving his point, but I think you don't know it, and honestly it's quite funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by [D]opeDog View Post

    I've just told you to read the entire verses but you keep refusing the fact . So I just decided to let you believe anything you want.
    That's not a fact......... I've already viewed the context and such and just narrowed it down to the verse itself*(as requested). Would providing the broader verses 2-3 after/before satisfy you? You can just click that as easily.

    I'm more impressed at how you haven't explained why they are taken out of context yet.
    -Do you guys lack the basic literary skills for such a feat?

    You really need to look up that word.(fact).


    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    and you are also aware that the he was spreading the message not raging battles against people so they accept islam?
    firstly that is incorrect he never Demanded Jizya untill the fact when the area was under his rule
    think of it like this
    i Live in the Us and u reject to pay you will exile me from there right then and there.
    Before trying to educate me read something about jizya and why did he ask for it.Its not like he went to rome asking for Jizya.
    AND he never raged wars against those who didnt pay Jizya like really what type of reason is that.
    And yes also read the source you provided me ?
    Considering i can assure you that you didn't even look at it
    There is little difference between wars for conversion sake and "spreading the message" by using war.

    It hardly matters when he demanded Jizya, the fact that he demanded it at all is appalling.

    I highly doubt you live in the US because you use "from there".

    No one claimed Muhammad waged wars or such for not paying Jizya, he did it for "spreading Islam" among other things. Jizya is always an event after, which again, it's a pretty bad practice.
    --------------------------


    Paradox, is your argument really "read it again"?

    That's the argument from people who have nothing to counter with.

    Form your argument, then post. Don't keep repeating yourself with "read it again" comments, if you can't explain why he is wrong, he wins.
    (because he has an argument and you have nothing to prove his argument wrong).
    Last edited by Empire; 01-11-2014 at 04:54 AM.


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  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    and you are also aware that the he was spreading the message not raging battles against people so they accept islam?



    firstly that is incorrect he never Demanded Jizya untill the fact when the area was under his rule
    think of it like this
    i Live in the Us and u reject to pay you will exile me from there right then and there.
    Before trying to educate me read something about jizya and why did he ask for it.Its not like he went to rome asking for Jizya.
    AND he never raged wars against those who didnt pay Jizya like really what type of reason is that.


    And yes also read the source you provided me ?
    Considering i can assure you that you didn't even look at it
    Ok you're you're either really confused or out of arguments.

    First off, let me address the fact that the whole thread that I started is about how he waged wars to spread the message. I never said he waged them so that he forces them to accept islam. So please, don't put words in my mouth.

    --------------------------

    I don't even know what's incorrect, since you just repeated what I just said. I said that he went to countries and asked them to convert to islam or pay Jizya. How is that incorrect?

    --------------------------

    Ok I'm sorry, but your comparison is just hilarious. How is that even related to the topic of debate?
    Let me explain this to you again because you seem really confused.
    You said it's like living in the us and rejecting to pay, that's wrong.
    Let me correct you.
    It's like living in the us and then china invades and asks you to convert to Buddhism or pay a huge sum of money.
    It's not the us asking us citizens, it's an outside country asking foreign citizens.

    --------------------------

    Also, I never said he waged wars against countries who didn't pay jizya. Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

    --------------------------

    You said it's not like he went to rome asking for jizya. What the hell?
    He did go to foreign countries bro.
    He invaded countries all over Western Asia, North Africa, Central Asia, and parts of South Asia.
    So yeah, it is like he went to rome asking for jizya.
    Fun Fact : The Aghlabids, a muslim dynasty, actually sacked rome and tried to invade areas in Rome however they failed.

    --------------------------

    Can you explain to me why I didn't read the source I sent you?
    You and Paradox keep saying "read it again", "give me a source", etc...
    Please come up with a half decent argument.
    Read @Empire 's post too.

    --------------------------

    Furthermore, do you know why extortion is wrong?

    "“Religions are, by definition, metaphors, after all: God is a dream, a hope, a woman, an ironist, a father, a city, a house of many rooms, a watchmaker who left his prize chronometer in the desert, someone who loves you—even, perhaps, against all evidence, a celestial being whose only interest is to make sure your football team, army, business, or marriage thrives, prospers, and triumphs over all opposition. Religions are places to stand and look and act, vantage points from which to view the world. So none of this is happening. Such things could not occur. Never a word of it is literally true.” .”
    I was Martin Johnson

  10. #23
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    i am not sure if you people are understanding me
    well due to my limited grammar its probably that i can not fully express my self
    however i find it rather unfair as per none of the people here who are for the topic have any knowledge what so ever about the religion Islam

    Either way if you must debate upon a topic may i suggest reading the basic roots.

    I understand now what era your talking about

    well firstly he "Muhammad" invaded areas and i see nothing wrong with that.
    every ruler did that..

    Secondly He gave every one free will which meant they could accept Islam if they wanted to or not.However if they were poor Jizya was not a compulsory upon them.This means every one had a choice to accept Islam and those who didn't were never harmed or Killed in public.
    Worst case scenario included to get exiled from the City.


    well if you consider that expansion of any empire is wrong well i am amazed.



    Either ways this debate will never prosper as per the "limited knowledge" card has already been played therefore please educate yourself about religion as per many people find it offensive

    and excuse my poor grammar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    i am not sure if you people are understanding me
    well due to my limited grammar its probably that i can not fully express my self
    however i find it rather unfair as per none of the people here who are for the topic have any knowledge what so ever about the religion Islam

    Either way if you must debate upon a topic may i suggest reading the basic roots.

    I understand now what era your talking about

    well firstly he "Muhammad" invaded areas and i see nothing wrong with that.
    every ruler did that..

    Secondly He gave every one free will which meant they could accept Islam if they wanted to or not.However if they were poor Jizya was not a compulsory upon them.This means every one had a choice to accept Islam and those who didn't were never harmed or Killed in public.
    Worst case scenario included to get exiled from the City.


    well if you consider that expansion of any empire is wrong well i am amazed.



    Either ways this debate will never prosper as per the "limited knowledge" card has already been played therefore please educate yourself about religion as per many people find it offensive

    and excuse my poor grammar.
    See here's the problem.

    If muhammed was conquering countries for the sake of expanding an empire I would have no problem.

    But he did it for the sake of spreading a religion.

    That's why I have a problem with him conquering.

    And yeah we don't have "limited knowledge".

    I spent my whole life learning about islam, i memorized the quran, i've been to several muslim schools, I've read over 50 books on islam and the prophet and most of all I'm a muslim.

    If anything you're the one with "limited knowledge"

    You can't put a proper argument together.

    You and your friend dopedog.

    And Empire doesn't have limited knowledge.

    He's been debating since before you were born bro.

    "“Religions are, by definition, metaphors, after all: God is a dream, a hope, a woman, an ironist, a father, a city, a house of many rooms, a watchmaker who left his prize chronometer in the desert, someone who loves you—even, perhaps, against all evidence, a celestial being whose only interest is to make sure your football team, army, business, or marriage thrives, prospers, and triumphs over all opposition. Religions are places to stand and look and act, vantage points from which to view the world. So none of this is happening. Such things could not occur. Never a word of it is literally true.” .”
    I was Martin Johnson

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    i am not sure if you people are understanding me
    well due to my limited grammar its probably that i can not fully express my self
    however i find it rather unfair as per none of the people here who are for the topic have any knowledge what so ever about the religion Islam

    Either way if you must debate upon a topic may i suggest reading the basic roots.

    I understand now what era your talking about

    well firstly he "Muhammad" invaded areas and i see nothing wrong with that.
    every ruler did that..

    Secondly He gave every one free will which meant they could accept Islam if they wanted to or not.However if they were poor Jizya was not a compulsory upon them.This means every one had a choice to accept Islam and those who didn't were never harmed or Killed in public.
    Worst case scenario included to get exiled from the City.


    well if you consider that expansion of any empire is wrong well i am amazed.



    Either ways this debate will never prosper as per the "limited knowledge" card has already been played therefore please educate yourself about religion as per many people find it offensive

    and excuse my poor grammar.

    If your argument is that they do not posses enough knowledge or are taking things out of context, and you can't explain why they are wrong.


    Then your argument is invalid.
    ----------

    Now on to the more troubling basic ethics problems you face.

    War is ok if other people are doing it.
    Jizya is ok because it wasn't on the poor.
    People can get exiled from their city for not being muslim and that's ok.

    :/ Sorry, basic stuff you shouldn't approve of and you are.


  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post



    If your argument is that they do not posses enough knowledge or are taking things out of context, and you can't explain why they are wrong.


    Then your argument is invalid.
    ----------

    Now on to the more troubling basic ethics problems you face.

    War is ok if other people are doing it.
    Jizya is ok because it wasn't on the poor.
    People can get exiled from their city for not being muslim and that's ok.

    :/ Sorry, basic stuff you shouldn't approve of and you are.
    as per i said Jizya was a tax that increased the Muslim treasury it was a tax that one must pay
    if you dont pay your taxes what will happen to you?

    and that was the worst case scenario where people got exiled i believe around 10 thousand people in the entire Muslim rule were exiled.
    Secondly jizya was a tax that was affordable by every one. it depended upon the belongings of some one e.g camels gold etc.

    and well i am leaving back for paki tmmrw so i hope some one can shed light upon this matter except me therefore this may be my last post on this thread.

  14. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    as per i said Jizya was a tax that increased the Muslim treasury it was a tax that one must pay
    if you dont pay your taxes what will happen to you?

    and that was the worst case scenario where people got exiled i believe around 10 thousand people in the entire Muslim rule were exiled.
    Secondly jizya was a tax that was affordable by every one. it depended upon the belongings of some one e.g camels gold etc.

    and well i am leaving back for paki tmmrw so i hope some one can shed light upon this matter except me therefore this may be my last post on this thread.
    :/

    You are arguing that a tax put on people just because they believed a different religion, is ok?

    You.......you need help.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post
    I'm just asking a little question here, which I would like you guys to discuss.


    How come your prophet is the only prophet in the abrahimic religions that spread his message through violence(conquests and such)?

    Christianity spread with missionaries.

    Judiasm spread with families/tribes etc...

    Almost all other prophets that were mentioned in the Quran such as Noah also spread their message with peaceful ways.

    However, Islam was the only religion that was spread in a violent manner.


    inb4 all you apologetic muslims. It's important to recognize the flaws of your religion, it doesn't make you a sinner.
    Firstly no Muslim thinks any human can be perfect. Secondly The wars were fought to protect the rights of muslims because they were being persecuted for their beliefs and were banished from their homes and businesses. They were not fought to spread the message of Islam. You cannot spread any message through violence.

    If someone threatened that they would kill you if you didn't convert to Islam with a sword to your head, would that make you convert? Think about it. At most you would just lie so he won't kill you, but deep down you would not have converted. Again this idea that Islamic teachings were spread through violence is just propaganda spread by American Christians.

    Here is what Gandhi said about Prophet Muhammad pbuh:

    “I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind… I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.”

    Just read the quotes of some famous non Muslim academics who have actually read about the life of prophet Muhammad pbuh and see what they say. Then compare that to ignorant statements by people who have not read about his life.
    Last edited by robinvanpersie; 01-14-2014 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Firstly no Muslim thinks any human can be perfect. Secondly The wars were fought to protect the rights of muslims because they were being persecuted for their beliefs and were banished from their homes and businesses. They were not fought to spread the message of Islam. You cannot spread any message through violence.

    If someone threatened that they would kill you if you didn't convert to Islam with a sword to your head, would that make you convert? Think about it. At most you would just lie so he won't kill you, but deep down you would not have converted. Again this idea that Islamic teachings were spread through violence is just propaganda spread by American Christians.

    Here is what Gandhi said about Prophet Muhammad pbuh:

    “I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind… I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.”

    Just read the quotes of some famous non Muslim academics who have actually read about the life of prophet Muhammad pbuh and see what they say. Then compare that to ignorant statements by people who have not read about his life.
    *Facepalm*

    First: They didn't attack Mecca to "stop the persecution of muslims"(seriously, how stupid are you to believe THAT was the cause for the war?). They did it because Mecca would have wiped them out had they been on the defending end.
    (and yes, muhammad started the war with the raids on caravans.).

    Second: Islamic teachings spread through violence is propaganda? The Islamic conquest through war and conquest is clear as day. It's history.......

    Oh....wait......


    My bad. This is the guy that thinks all history is propaganda made up to suit some conspiracy against him.


    Yeah no, not gonna respond further, waste of time.
    Last edited by Empire; 01-14-2014 at 01:52 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post
    I'm just asking a little question here, which I would like you guys to discuss.


    How come your prophet is the only prophet in the abrahimic religions that spread his message through violence(conquests and such)?

    Christianity spread with missionaries.

    Judiasm spread with families/tribes etc...

    Almost all other prophets that were mentioned in the Quran such as Noah also spread their message with peaceful ways.

    However, Islam was the only religion that was spread in a violent manner.


    inb4 all you apologetic muslims. It's important to recognize the flaws of your religion, it doesn't make you a sinner.
    I would say that Christians were more violent, Once rome accepted it (btw christianity is entirely based off roman ideals of christianity so dont even try to disconnect now) they went on and spread the religion throughout there territories and western europe (including UK) by essentially killing off the people that refused it ... but I digress. Islam actually simply was before the war in mekkha happened. Muhammad (SWT) asked men of his tribe to go about and spread the religions not by war but by good deeds and to help people regardless of wealth or physical well being. Then when men from other tribes started to move them away from there homes and killed them due to being Muslim Muhammad fought back (kinda the opposite of christians) and in tern took what would then be the arab nations to be a muslim nation. Forward about 90-134 years Romans see that the muslims are not only cutting off trade but are also spreading there religion throughtout there roman kingdoms (Mind you still peacefully). The Romans being crude killer fighting machines hell bent on ruling the world (similar to mini hitlers) would want to see to the end of the arab nations and start the "holy crusades". Where essentially they slaughter thousands and rape civilians you know for that child molesting religion that oppressis women and outsider beliefs.

    Of course the arab nations being well cultured having better infrastructure and being better educated were capable of defeating the romans (which we have proof of since most of the middle east is muslim) Once the muslim empires get through the sieging and wars against there peoples they continue to spread religion and gain in technological power. Which is why today we have most of our mathematics and ship/trade/health inventions. And then when most of the world starts progressing into a huge amount of modern tech and traversing the planet becomes easier muslims spread across the world and the wackjob muslims travel with them (every religion has them just christian wack jobs are pretttyyyyy normal after hundreds of years of killing raping pillaging and stealing).

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