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    A questions to you muslims out there that think your prophet is perfect

    I'm just asking a little question here, which I would like you guys to discuss.


    How come your prophet is the only prophet in the abrahimic religions that spread his message through violence(conquests and such)?

    Christianity spread with missionaries.

    Judiasm spread with families/tribes etc...

    Almost all other prophets that were mentioned in the Quran such as Noah also spread their message with peaceful ways.

    However, Islam was the only religion that was spread in a violent manner.


    inb4 all you apologetic muslims. It's important to recognize the flaws of your religion, it doesn't make you a sinner.

    "“Religions are, by definition, metaphors, after all: God is a dream, a hope, a woman, an ironist, a father, a city, a house of many rooms, a watchmaker who left his prize chronometer in the desert, someone who loves you—even, perhaps, against all evidence, a celestial being whose only interest is to make sure your football team, army, business, or marriage thrives, prospers, and triumphs over all opposition. Religions are places to stand and look and act, vantage points from which to view the world. So none of this is happening. Such things could not occur. Never a word of it is literally true.” .”
    I was Martin Johnson

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    inb4 isn't on the first post......


    Well actually christianity spread 3 ways.

    At first it spread with word of mouth and peaceful conversions.
    Then rome adopted it and used it as it's conquest religion.
    Then waaaaaaaay later missionary work was done. Half offense half peaceful, just depending upon what country did it.

    Judaism really just spread with bloodline originally(them being "god's chosen people" according to them)., but the message was usually spread peacefully in industrial on.
    --------

    Islam was spread in a violent manner yes, more "oppressive" than violent, but was still pretty violent for conversion's sake.(yes, lots of people died).



    Islam isn't the only one to have ever spread through violence, it is the only one to encourage spreading the religion through violence in it's books and by it's prophet.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    inb4 isn't on the first post......


    Well actually christianity spread 3 ways.

    At first it spread with word of mouth and peaceful conversions.
    Then rome adopted it and used it as it's conquest religion.
    Then waaaaaaaay later missionary work was done. Half offense half peaceful, just depending upon what country did it.

    Judaism really just spread with bloodline originally(them being "god's chosen people" according to them)., but the message was usually spread peacefully in industrial on.
    --------

    Islam was spread in a violent manner yes, more "oppressive" than violent, but was still pretty violent for conversion's sake.(yes, lots of people died).


    Islam isn't the only one to have ever spread through violence, it is the only one to encourage spreading the religion through violence in it's books and by it's prophet.
    can u please prove that where it tells us to spread it through violence
    provide a hadith or a text form the Quran please.

    OP the prophet and his tribe was exiled forced to eat grass for 5 months
    after that a negro slave called Bilal was forced into lying upon the burning sand of the desert with a stone upon his chest

    the Prophets and his followers endured alot of these difficulties and during this time period no one rebelled or asked any one to do so
    however when these hostilities reached their peak Allah revealed 'fight in the cause of allah those who fight you"
    after the Muslims won their battles the Prophet announced General pardon to every one and allowed them to practice their religion however most people fled the cities in the fear that other Muslims might react harshly towards them as per they did the same before

    and those who stayed willingly accepted Islam.
    if you observe Islam was spreading in a increasing amm. at that time therefore these people forced the Muslims to fight due to they feared that they might overthrow them.


    And the battle was not started by the Muslims the people of Makkah were already planning to attack the Muslims of Maddinah
    Last edited by Paradox_x; 01-09-2014 at 04:31 AM.

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    u have proves ?
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    People can say that the Bible promotes violence as well (if the verses are taken out of context). For instance, here are some choice passages from the Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil:

    1) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants,
    2) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war,
    3) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently,
    4) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law,
    5) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post
    I'm just asking a little question here, which I would like you guys to discuss.


    How come your prophet is the only prophet in the abrahimic religions that spread his message through violence(conquests and such)?

    Christianity spread with missionaries.

    Judiasm spread with families/tribes etc...

    Almost all other prophets that were mentioned in the Quran such as Noah also spread their message with peaceful ways.

    However, Islam was the only religion that was spread in a violent manner.


    inb4 all you apologetic muslims. It's important to recognize the flaws of your religion, it doesn't make you a sinner.
    They planted this words on your mind , anyways...
    ----------------------------
    1-The Islam in its start was told in "secret" way , now can you ask me why ? Because If It was public then the Quraesh high people (such as Abo-Jahl aka Aba El-hakam and others) will try to kill the prophet and they will try to kill his followers . Did you know why he started it in a secret way the first 3 years? Because of the conquer of Qurayesh..
    2-After It been public , they fought the followers of the prophet , they killed them in their houses , they burnt their houses , they killed their women , they punished them ... Now after all of that ! What would you do to invite the people in Islam ? Simple as fuck , just invite them and go out of your country the you love then go in wars to get back to your country ... That's what happened EXACTLY!
    3-After they got back their country (Mecca) , they wanted to invite more people ... If they did it like the previous time then they will be killed , punished and etc... What should they do ? Again , make wars or tell the kings of the countries to invite your people to Islam and If they don't want to be Muslims they will pay the Jizyah ..

    Tell me what to explain after that ? It is simple ..
    If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
    Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
    You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.

    -Albert Einstein



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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    can u please prove that where it tells us to spread it through violence
    provide a hadith or a text form the Quran please.

    OP the prophet and his tribe was exiled forced to eat grass for 5 months
    after that a negro slave called Bilal was forced into lying upon the burning sand of the desert with a stone upon his chest

    the Prophets and his followers endured alot of these difficulties and during this time period no one rebelled or asked any one to do so
    however when these hostilities reached their peak Allah revealed 'fight in the cause of allah those who fight you"
    after the Muslims won their battles the Prophet announced General pardon to every one and allowed them to practice their religion however most people fled the cities in the fear that other Muslims might react harshly towards them as per they did the same before

    and those who stayed willingly accepted Islam.
    if you observe Islam was spreading in a increasing amm. at that time therefore these people forced the Muslims to fight due to they feared that they might overthrow them.


    And the battle was not started by the Muslims the people of Makkah were already planning to attack the Muslims of Maddinah
    The prophet was forced to eat grass for 5 months? What the fuck are you talking about? They went straight to medina, him and his wife were rich . They were treated as "honored guest" and given food and shelter almost immediately.

    The funny thing here is that muhammad actually started the fights. Both in the city of mecca originally(by denouncing other people's gods in the streets) and his raids against the caravans later which started the wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    People can say that the Bible promotes violence as well (if the verses are taken out of context). For instance, here are some choice passages from the Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil:

    1) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants,
    2) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war,
    3) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently,
    4) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law,
    5) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.
    First off, this doesn't encourage to spread the religion. It encourages violence/genocide, and yes, that is bad. (no argument here).
    --------------------------------
    :/ You are corretct on everything except the mark and luke.
    Mark
    Mark 7:9-13 - And he continued,
    -Jesus isn't critical of them for not killing their children.....at all.


    Luke(and I swear you are just retarded here)
    It's not actually Jesus talking, it's a story about a man and his servants.
    Luke 19:22-27,Luke 8:16-18 NIV -

    Quote Originally Posted by [D]opeDog View Post

    They planted this words on your mind , anyways...
    ----------------------------
    1-The Islam in its start was told in "secret" way , now can you ask me why ? Because If It was public then the Quraesh high people (such as Abo-Jahl aka Aba El-hakam and others) will try to kill the prophet and they will try to kill his followers . Did you know why he started it in a secret way the first 3 years? Because of the conquer of Qurayesh..
    2-After It been public , they fought the followers of the prophet , they killed them in their houses , they burnt their houses , they killed their women , they punished them ... Now after all of that ! What would you do to invite the people in Islam ? Simple as fuck , just invite them and go out of your country the you love then go in wars to get back to your country ... That's what happened EXACTLY!
    3-After they got back their country (Mecca) , they wanted to invite more people ... If they did it like the previous time then they will be killed , punished and etc... What should they do ? Again , make wars or tell the kings of the countries to invite your people to Islam and If they don't want to be Muslims they will pay the Jizyah ..

    Tell me what to explain after that ? It is simple ..
    1. No Islam didn't start in "secret" because people Muhammed was preaching in public and denouncing other people's gods..... it started in small numbers though, and to be fair the "persecution" was to be expected.(and ironically you can get persecuted just as much TODAY(in a muslim city!) if you pulled the same shit muhammad did back then ).
    2. What are you smoking? They didn't "kill his followers and their families" lol. They banished muhammad(well, he ran the fuck away) and his followers went with him.
    3. So...in your own words they made war for the sake of converts and those who resisted conversion had to pay them money.(*cough* extortion *cough*)
    Last edited by Empire; 01-09-2014 at 01:48 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    1. No Islam didn't start in "secret" because people Muhammed was preaching in public and denouncing other people's gods..... it started in small numbers though, and to be fair the "persecution" was to be expected.(and ironically you can get persecuted just as much TODAY(in a muslim city!) if you pulled the same shit muhammad did back then ).
    No , It stared in the secret the first 3 years and after that he announced about it.. Please read some shit or don't talk about what you don't know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    2. What are you smoking? They didn't "kill his followers and their families" lol. They banished muhammad(well, he ran the fuck away) and his followers went with him.
    No they did , If you read some you will know that . They banished his followers to get back to atheism but they didn't so they killed them and some another went with the prophet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    3. So...in your own words they made war for the sake of converts and those who resisted conversion had to pay them money.(*cough* extortion *cough*)
    If you read what I said EXACTLY you will see that I said : "After they got back their country (Mecca) , they wanted to invite more people ... If they did it like the previous time then they will be killed , punished and etc... " and to get back to what you was saying about "fighting in the sake of converts or pay money" , It wasn't really like that . If you saw Omar-Ibn El Khatab's time when he ruled he saw a Jewish old man and he saw that he don't have money to pay it for the Islamic country , he gave him some money + he made him work + he stopped making him pay money ... Now what is this Jizya for ? This is for protecting him ...
    I didn't give you a lot of information because I'm not going to discuss with you in another subject that we were doing already.
    By the way Muhammad wasn't rich but his woman.





    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post
    Oh sorry paradox, forgot to put the verses promoting violence and such.

    Surat Al-Baqarah [2:191] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    Surat Al-Baqarah [2:244] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    Surat An-Nisa' [4:76] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:151] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    Surat An-Nisa' [4:95-96] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    Surat Al-'Anfal [8:12] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    -personal favorite right there.
    Surat At-Tawbah [9:14] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    Surat At-Tawbah [9:88] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    Surat Al-'Isra' [17:16] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
    Surat Al-'Anfal [8:65] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

    I could get more, if you'd like. I'd think that would be enough for now.
    Please when you see a text of the qur'an read the entire verses
    Surat Al-Baqarah [2:190-191] : "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."
    -----------------------
    The first one is the like that second which is Fight in the cause of allah (Kill those who kill you.)
    ------------------------

    I will not explain the other verses that you mentioned , I just liked to tell you that it has no "violence", It is just because you read the entire verses.

    In Qu'ran when you see a verses you will see up there something called "View more context" , press on it and then you will see the entire verses
    If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
    Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value.
    You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.

    -Albert Einstein



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    Quote Originally Posted by [D]opeDog View Post

    No , It stared in the secret the first 3 years and after that he announced about it.. Please read some shit or don't talk about what you don't know.

    No they did , If you read some you will know that . They banished his followers to get back to atheism but they didn't so they killed them and some another went with the prophet.


    If you read what I said EXACTLY you will see that I said : "After they got back their country (Mecca) , they wanted to invite more people ... If they did it like the previous time then they will be killed , punished and etc... " and to get back to what you was saying about "fighting in the sake of converts or pay money" , It wasn't really like that . If you saw Omar-Ibn El Khatab's time when he ruled he saw a Jewish old man and he saw that he don't have money to pay it for the Islamic country , he gave him some money + he made him work + he stopped making him pay money ... Now what is this Jizya for ? This is for protecting him ...
    I didn't give you a lot of information because I'm not going to discuss with you in another subject that we were doing already.
    By the way Muhammad wasn't rich but his woman.

    Please when you see a text of the qur'an read the entire verses
    Surat Al-Baqarah [2:190-191] : "Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors. And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."
    -----------------------
    The first one is the like that second which is Fight in the cause of allah (Kill those who kill you.)
    ------------------------

    I will not explain the other verses that you mentioned , I just liked to tell you that it has no "violence", It is just because you read the entire verses.

    In Qu'ran when you see a verses you will see up there something called "View more context" , press on it and then you will see the entire verses
    1. Ok prove it started in secret.(need source)
    2. Yeah I don't even know what you are talking about on the banishing. Getting back to atheism? What? A source is needed since atheism in those times was extremely rare.
    3. In your own words EXACTLY: "What should they do ? Again , make wars or tell the kings of the countries to invite your people to Islam and If they don't want to be Muslims they will pay the Jizyah".
    -So again, war and extortion.
    4. Dope, you misunderstand why I posted those verses.
    Parodox asked for verses encouragement of violence, those verses encourage such. "For the cause of allah" isn't a valid excuse for violence, especially not with the "religion of peace" Islam so claims to be.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    can u please prove that where it tells us to spread it through violence
    provide a hadith or a text form the Quran please.

    OP the prophet and his tribe was exiled forced to eat grass for 5 months
    after that a negro slave called Bilal was forced into lying upon the burning sand of the desert with a stone upon his chest

    the Prophets and his followers endured alot of these difficulties and during this time period no one rebelled or asked any one to do so
    however when these hostilities reached their peak Allah revealed 'fight in the cause of allah those who fight you"
    after the Muslims won their battles the Prophet announced General pardon to every one and allowed them to practice their religion however most people fled the cities in the fear that other Muslims might react harshly towards them as per they did the same before

    and those who stayed willingly accepted Islam.
    if you observe Islam was spreading in a increasing amm. at that time therefore these people forced the Muslims to fight due to they feared that they might overthrow them.


    And the battle was not started by the Muslims the people of Makkah were already planning to attack the Muslims of Maddinah
    Quote Originally Posted by [D]opeDog View Post

    They planted this words on your mind , anyways...
    ----------------------------
    1-The Islam in its start was told in "secret" way , now can you ask me why ? Because If It was public then the Quraesh high people (such as Abo-Jahl aka Aba El-hakam and others) will try to kill the prophet and they will try to kill his followers . Did you know why he started it in a secret way the first 3 years? Because of the conquer of Qurayesh..
    2-After It been public , they fought the followers of the prophet , they killed them in their houses , they burnt their houses , they killed their women , they punished them ... Now after all of that ! What would you do to invite the people in Islam ? Simple as fuck , just invite them and go out of your country the you love then go in wars to get back to your country ... That's what happened EXACTLY!
    3-After they got back their country (Mecca) , they wanted to invite more people ... If they did it like the previous time then they will be killed , punished and etc... What should they do ? Again , make wars or tell the kings of the countries to invite your people to Islam and If they don't want to be Muslims they will pay the Jizyah ..

    Tell me what to explain after that ? It is simple ..
    Yeah sorry bro, but they didn't just fight those who fought them.

    Did the Egyptians fight them? No. However islam conquered Egypt.
    Did the Libyans fight them? No. Islam conquered Libya as well.


    My point is, Islam went in and conquered countries that had no relation whatsoever with Islam. They hardly knew it existed. Islam was spread by the sword as much as it was by ink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    The prophet was forced to eat grass for 5 months? What the fuck are you talking about? They went straight to medina, him and his wife were rich . They were treated as "honored guest" and given food and shelter almost immediately.

    The funny thing here is that muhammad actually started the fights. Both in the city of mecca originally(by denouncing other people's gods in the streets) and his raids against the caravans later which started the wars.



    First off, this doesn't encourage to spread the religion. It encourages violence/genocide, and yes, that is bad. (no argument here).
    --------------------------------
    :/ You are corretct on everything except the mark and luke.
    Mark
    Mark 7:9-13 - And he continued,
    -Jesus isn't critical of them for not killing their children.....at all.


    Luke(and I swear you are just retarded here)
    It's not actually Jesus talking, it's a story about a man and his servants.
    Luke 19:22-27,Luke 8:16-18 NIV -



    1. No Islam didn't start in "secret" because people Muhammed was preaching in public and denouncing other people's gods..... it started in small numbers though, and to be fair the "persecution" was to be expected.(and ironically you can get persecuted just as much TODAY(in a muslim city!) if you pulled the same shit muhammad did back then ).
    2. What are you smoking? They didn't "kill his followers and their families" lol. They banished muhammad(well, he ran the fuck away) and his followers went with him.
    3. So...in your own words they made war for the sake of converts and those who resisted conversion had to pay them money.(*cough* extortion *cough*)
    Please tell me about the caravan raids.
    As in dates and such.
    (For the sake of knowledge not debate)
    Last edited by Martin Johnson; 01-09-2014 at 05:25 PM.

    "“Religions are, by definition, metaphors, after all: God is a dream, a hope, a woman, an ironist, a father, a city, a house of many rooms, a watchmaker who left his prize chronometer in the desert, someone who loves you—even, perhaps, against all evidence, a celestial being whose only interest is to make sure your football team, army, business, or marriage thrives, prospers, and triumphs over all opposition. Religions are places to stand and look and act, vantage points from which to view the world. So none of this is happening. Such things could not occur. Never a word of it is literally true.” .”
    I was Martin Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post

    Please tell me about the caravan raids.
    As in dates and such.
    (For the sake of knowledge not debate)
    Caravan raids - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It's worth knowing the military history of muhammad, as you learn some interesting things from time to time.(fun fact: Muhammad actually lost a battle).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Johnson View Post




    Yeah sorry bro, but they didn't just fight those who fought them.

    Did the Egyptians fight them? No. However islam conquered Egypt.
    Did the Libyans fight them? No. Islam conquered Libya as well.


    My point is, Islam went in and conquered countries that had no relation whatsoever with Islam. They hardly knew it existed. Islam was spread by the sword as much as it was by ink.



    Please tell me about the caravan raids.
    As in dates and such.
    (For the sake of knowledge not debate)
    still waiting for a source to prove that they did fight them for no reason at all.
    as i said before if you read it out of context it does not make sense @Empire read the entire passage before you quote the Quran as per your extremely wrong here.
    Last edited by Paradox_x; 01-10-2014 at 02:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox_x View Post
    still waiting for a source to prove that they did fight them for no reason at all.
    as i said before if you read it out of context it does not make sense @Empire read the entire passage before you quote the Quran as per your extremely wrong here.
    Prove me wrong, don't just say "you are wrong".

    Jeez, you'd think kids these days would understand that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Prove me wrong, don't just say "you are wrong".

    Jeez, you'd think kids these days would understand that.

    mate your using the internet can you not just read the entire Quran and the passage rather then taking slected text out of it
    third time on this thread ive pointed this out just Google it
    do i need to link you to that as well ?_?

    you provided text out of context as i said before
    "People can say that the Bible promotes violence as well (if the verses are taken out of context). For instance, here are some choice passages from the Bible which when read in isolation makes the Bible appear to be a primer for evil:

    1) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants,
    2) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war,
    3) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently,
    4) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law,
    5) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him."

    therefore try to understand rather then being ignorant .
    Last edited by Paradox_x; 01-10-2014 at 05:22 AM.

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