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  1. #46
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    the muslims you should be hating are the ones who say shit like "behead those behead this"



    wtf did u just say to me you moot cunt say 2 me face you piece of shit and not over the internet ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by checkme323 View Post
    the muslims you should be hating are the ones who say shit like "behead those behead this"
    Well like I said, it's more Islam than Muslims.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Well like I said, it's more Islam than Muslims.
    This is where I think it's unfair to single out islam as a religion for being bad. Most of the principles in islam were simply carried over from previous principles.

    Also, I don't think the problem is with islam, the problem is with the people themselves.

    Religion is like drugs, you use it correctly it's good, you use it incorrectly it's dangerous. The reason I say this is because of pretty much the large majority of muslims who are, for the most part, good or average people. I would not blame Islam because, while it has some violence inducing verses, if explained and taught right they are perfectly fine.

    "“Religions are, by definition, metaphors, after all: God is a dream, a hope, a woman, an ironist, a father, a city, a house of many rooms, a watchmaker who left his prize chronometer in the desert, someone who loves you—even, perhaps, against all evidence, a celestial being whose only interest is to make sure your football team, army, business, or marriage thrives, prospers, and triumphs over all opposition. Religions are places to stand and look and act, vantage points from which to view the world. So none of this is happening. Such things could not occur. Never a word of it is literally true.” .”
    I was Martin Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller View Post



    This is where I think it's unfair to single out islam as a religion for being bad. Most of the principles in islam were simply carried over from previous principles.

    Also, I don't think the problem is with islam, the problem is with the people themselves.

    Religion is like drugs, you use it correctly it's good, you use it incorrectly it's dangerous. The reason I say this is because of pretty much the large majority of muslims who are, for the most part, good or average people. I would not blame Islam because, while it has some violence inducing verses, if explained and taught right they are perfectly fine.
    Well it's not "singling out" from an atheistic perspective, it's just on the topic of. From a christianity perspective it's hypocritical though.

    Anyway, Islam has more than just a few bad verses, as does the bible/torah.


    Again, Islam the religion, not muslims the people.

    It's just pointed out in Islam, most christians don't really know the bible contains the same shit.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Well it's not "singling out" from an atheistic perspective, it's just on the topic of. From a christianity perspective it's hypocritical though.

    Anyway, Islam has more than just a few bad verses, as does the bible/torah.


    Again, Islam the religion, not muslims the people.

    It's just pointed out in Islam, most christians don't really know the bible contains the same shit.
    Come on dude it is entirely those "muslims" fault. I will challenge you. If you post just one verse from the Quran in context where it talks about violence and it does not say stop fighting if the opponent stops fighting, then I will agree with you that Islam is violent. Just one verse.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Come on dude it is entirely those "muslims" fault. I will challenge you. If you post just one verse from the Quran in context where it talks about violence and it does not say stop fighting if the opponent stops fighting, then I will agree with you that Islam is violent. Just one verse.
    Big mistake...

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Come on dude it is entirely those "muslims" fault. I will challenge you. If you post just one verse from the Quran in context where it talks about violence and it does not say stop fighting if the opponent stops fighting, then I will agree with you that Islam is violent. Just one verse.
    I assume you think that thishttp://quran.com/2/191-193 is the only verse in the quran speaking of violence?

    http://quran.com/2/244
    http://quran.com/2/216
    http://quran.com/3/56
    http://quran.com/3/151
    http://quran.com/4/76
    http://quran.com/4/89
    http://quran.com/4/95-96
    http://quran.com/5/33
    http://quran.com/4/104
    http://quran.com/8/12
    http://quran.com/8/15
    http://quran.com/8/39
    http://quran.com/8/57
    http://quran.com/9/5
    http://quran.com/9/14
    http://quran.com/9/29
    http://quran.com/9/38-39
    http://quran.com/9/41
    http://quran.com/9/73
    http://quran.com/9/88
    http://quran.com/9/111
    http://quran.com/9/123

    Have fun.


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  10. #54
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    http://quran.com/2/244
    It says to fight in the cause of Allah and the next verses explains the cause:
    They said, "And why should we not fight in the cause of Allah when we have been driven out from our homes and from our children?" – 2:246
    http://quran.com/2/216
    It says to fight those who try to force you to leave Islam, the next verse explains that:
    And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. – 2:217
    http://quran.com/3/56
    http://quran.com/3/151
    Those verses state that God will punish those He deems worthy, it does not say anything about fighting anyone.
    http://quran.com/4/76
    It says fight the allies of Satan not innocent people; those who cause chaos and mischief in the world.
    http://quran.com/4/89
    This verse says to fight those who want to change your belief. The next verse says:
    Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them. 4:90
    http://quran.com/4/95-96
    This verse says that God loves those who fight for God’s cause not those who are cowards. Again, God’s cause is to fight those: who oppress you, force you to believe something, and who drive you away from your home.
    http://quran.com/5/33
    It says to fight those who wage war on you, start of the verse:
    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed. - 5:33
    http://quran.com/8/12
    That verse says God will punish those who disbelieve. It does not say anything about fighting.
    http://quran.com/8/15
    This verse says to not run away from battle by being a coward. From the previous verses it is clear you only fight someone else who wages war on you or oppresses you.
    http://quran.com/8/39
    Again it says to only fight if they fight you, the previous verse:
    Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place. -8:39
    http://quran.com/8/57
    Again it is talking about when the opponent has waged war on you. A couple of verses later:
    And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. – 8:60
    http://quran.com/9/5
    Again it is talking about when the polytheists are fighting you then you should fight to defend. The next verse:
    And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know. – 9:6
    http://quran.com/9/14
    Again it says to fight those who fight you first, the previous verse:
    Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers. -9:13
    http://quran.com/9/29
    Again it means to fight those who fight or oppress you as mentioned a few verses earlier that I posted, 9:14. Also here is the interpretation from a scholar:
    These Ayat (Quranic verses) stress the necessity of fighting against the People of the Scripture, but under what conditions? We previously established the fact that the Islamic State is not permitted to attack non-Muslims who are not hostile to Islam, who do not oppress Muslims, or try to convert Muslims by force from their religion, or expel them from their lands, or wage war against them, or prepare for attacks against them. If any of these offenses occurs, however, Muslims are permitted to defend themselves and protect their religion. Muslims are not permitted to attack non-Muslims who signed peace pacts with them, or non-Muslims who live under the protection of the Islamic State. (Abualrub, Holy Wars, Crusades, Jihad)
    http://quran.com/9/38-39
    http://quran.com/9/41
    http://quran.com/9/73
    http://quran.com/9/88
    http://quran.com/9/111
    http://quran.com/9/123
    Again all of these verses are from the same chapter and they teach to fight in the cause of Allah, which I hope by now is obvious. It is not to convert everyone to Islam, but to not be a coward and to fight those who oppress you, force you to believe something, wage war on you, and drive you from your home.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

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  12. #55
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    Islam does not teach pacifism. If someone is being oppressed, or being forced to believe something, or someone is being attacked, then they have the right to defend themselves in Islam. I don't blame people who believe whatever they hear from people about Islam, backed up by verses taken out of context. If they can be used to fool uneducated "muslims" about Islam into killing innocent people. then they can be used to make non muslims believe that Islam teaches to kill innocent people.

    The key is to see where you are getting your information from and what their agenda is. Some people have a goal to make non muslims hate muslims and to believe that Islam teaches to kill them. Some people have a goal to make muslims hate non muslims so they kill them for political reasons. While some people create websites like: http://www.al-islam.org/ and have a goal to help people understand Islam. It is up to you, choose to hear the truth or choose to hear what you want to hear.
    Last edited by robinvanpersie; 06-07-2014 at 01:37 PM.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

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  14. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    http://quran.com/2/244
    It says to fight in the cause of Allah and the next verses explains the cause:
    They said, "And why should we not fight in the cause of Allah when we have been driven out from our homes and from our children?" – 2:246
    http://quran.com/2/216
    It says to fight those who try to force you to leave Islam, the next verse explains that:
    And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. – 2:217
    http://quran.com/3/56
    http://quran.com/3/151
    Those verses state that God will punish those He deems worthy, it does not say anything about fighting anyone.
    http://quran.com/4/76
    It says fight the allies of Satan not innocent people; those who cause chaos and mischief in the world.
    http://quran.com/4/89
    This verse says to fight those who want to change your belief. The next verse says:
    Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them. 4:90
    http://quran.com/4/95-96
    This verse says that God loves those who fight for God’s cause not those who are cowards. Again, God’s cause is to fight those: who oppress you, force you to believe something, and who drive you away from your home.
    http://quran.com/5/33
    It says to fight those who wage war on you, start of the verse:
    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed. - 5:33
    http://quran.com/8/12
    That verse says God will punish those who disbelieve. It does not say anything about fighting.
    http://quran.com/8/15
    This verse says to not run away from battle by being a coward. From the previous verses it is clear you only fight someone else who wages war on you or oppresses you.
    http://quran.com/8/39
    Again it says to only fight if they fight you, the previous verse:
    Say to those who have disbelieved [that] if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them. But if they return [to hostility] - then the precedent of the former [rebellious] peoples has already taken place. -8:39
    http://quran.com/8/57
    Again it is talking about when the opponent has waged war on you. A couple of verses later:
    And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing. – 8:60
    http://quran.com/9/5
    Again it is talking about when the polytheists are fighting you then you should fight to defend. The next verse:
    And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know. – 9:6
    http://quran.com/9/14
    Again it says to fight those who fight you first, the previous verse:
    Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers. -9:13
    http://quran.com/9/29
    Again it means to fight those who fight or oppress you as mentioned a few verses earlier that I posted, 9:14. Also here is the interpretation from a scholar:
    These Ayat (Quranic verses) stress the necessity of fighting against the People of the Scripture, but under what conditions? We previously established the fact that the Islamic State is not permitted to attack non-Muslims who are not hostile to Islam, who do not oppress Muslims, or try to convert Muslims by force from their religion, or expel them from their lands, or wage war against them, or prepare for attacks against them. If any of these offenses occurs, however, Muslims are permitted to defend themselves and protect their religion. Muslims are not permitted to attack non-Muslims who signed peace pacts with them, or non-Muslims who live under the protection of the Islamic State. (Abualrub, Holy Wars, Crusades, Jihad)
    http://quran.com/9/38-39
    http://quran.com/9/41
    http://quran.com/9/73
    http://quran.com/9/88
    http://quran.com/9/111
    http://quran.com/9/123
    Again all of these verses are from the same chapter and they teach to fight in the cause of Allah, which I hope by now is obvious. It is not to convert everyone to Islam, but to not be a coward and to fight those who oppress you, force you to believe something, wage war on you, and drive you from your home.
    I don't think you realize.... "killing in the name of god", is still killing, and therefore not peaceful. I do not understand this mentality of yours. War is war, no matter what cause are fighting for if you command someone to kill, you are not peaceful.


    Also(although I like the effort), I was hoping that I wouldn't have to spell out the obvious.
    http://quran.com/4/76
    -You seem to not realize that no one really fought in the "cause of satan"...ever if I'm correct. It's a free-license to fight people you you deem to be satanic, not who are actually satanic.

    http://quran.com/3/151
    -Refuge will be fire.

    http://quran.com/4/89
    -Fight those who want to change your belief. Same thing Islam would be doing. In other words, fight those who are not of your faith. Don't be naive.



    http://quran.com/9/5
    -Actually its saying "if they surrender"
    --------------------------------------------

    I'm not going to bother with every verse since you didn't(I can post even more if you'd like tho),

    Point is, the verses state to wage war, to fight others.

    YOU CLAIM that they offer peace if they person submits to them in war, and to your credit you are right.


    But this is waging war with the mentality that if they surrender you accept. That's not a problem, the problem is that the verses explicitly state(many , many times) that god gives the go-ahead to wage war in the first place for non defensive means.

    You seem to not understand that letting the enemy surrender is after they are attacking.


    And I don't even have to argue the interpretation, muslims waged war offensively from these verses(it's in islamic history), and are continuing to use the Quran as justification to do. Even muhammed waged an offensive war.



    You can't have 10-20+ verses stating that war is ok as long as you stop when they surrender, it's not a religion of peace, it's not peaceful, and it's not a "self-defense".

    I'm sorry, but just because you put the surrender clause up, doesn't mean those verses don't support war.
    Last edited by Empire; 06-09-2014 at 03:49 PM.


  15. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Come on dude it is entirely those "muslims" fault. I will challenge you. If you post just one verse from the Quran in context where it talks about violence and it does not say stop fighting if the opponent stops fighting, then I will agree with you that Islam is violent. Just one verse.
    I forgot to address this personally, maybe this will be a more clear response:

    Saying that violence is ok as long as they surrender is not morally sound.

    To use that logic elsewhere:

    WWII was justified because nobody surrendered. Wars in the middle east are justified, because nobody surrendered.
    ----------------


    I have to make this clear: Surrendering in Islam means that the victor controls the loser. If an Islamic nation won against a non Islamic nation they gained control over it, which is why there was an Islamic empire. In fact, almost all of the great empires use this strategy, so that they may not waste the resources they gain through war.

    In the same sense, this is arguing that conquest and colonization through military means is ok. It is not.
    Last edited by Empire; 06-09-2014 at 03:58 PM.


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    No it was clear from all of the verses that you are only allowed to fight if someone else wages war on you or oppresses you or forces you to believe something. Ceasing to fight does not mean surrendering. It says in the Quran in numerous verses, to stop fighting when they stop fighting, it does not say you stop fighting until they surrender.

    You talk so much about Islam. When are you actually going to read the Quran to clear up your ignorance? Read it from beginning to end and each of the verses in the context of the chapters.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  17. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    No it was clear from all of the verses that you are only allowed to fight if someone else wages war on you or oppresses you or forces you to believe something. Ceasing to fight does not mean surrendering. It says in the Quran in numerous verses, to stop fighting when they stop fighting, it does not say you stop fighting until they surrender.

    You talk so much about Islam. When are you actually going to read the Quran to clear up your ignorance? Read it from beginning to end and each of the verses in the context of the chapters.
    It is clearly not, and that's not what happened in Islamic history.

    Again, you seem to not understand that the Islamic people never interpreted that way and used these verses to wage offensive wars.

    Even in quantity, you have one or two verses stating not to attack if they surrender, or not to wage an offensive war, but those verses are few and far between when compared to the "permission" verses.

    I listed 20 verses(I have more, but the points already made). I mean that's 20 verses saying basically "kill your enemy", to your one saying "do not fight offensively".


    Even the "if they surrender" verse acknowledges that they will be fighting a new war.

    I like debates tho. The Islamic peace one, has been done forever now.


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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    No it was clear from all of the verses that you are only allowed to fight if someone else wages war on you or oppresses you or forces you to believe something.

    9:5"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

    9:6"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know."

    So kill all the pagans without remorse wherever you find them, capture them and give them an ultimatum of conversion or (I assume) death/slavery. How exactly is that fighting oppression? It's also hypocritical, they don't want Muslims forced into conversion but have no problem doing it themselves. Also it says in the next verse grant protection to those who seek it and that's all fine and dandy, the problem I have with that verse is it seems the only purpose for it is to preform a false charitable act for the sole reason in seeking a conversion, geez for the "one true religion" it seems it goes out of it's way to get members anyway it can no matter how immoral it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Ceasing to fight does not mean surrendering.
    "sur·ren·der cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority."
    Uh, yes it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    It says in the Quran in numerous verses, to stop fighting when they stop fighting, it does not say you stop fighting until they surrender.
    I think your confused, the only way to stop a fight that has already commenced is to beat your opponent, or one party ceases resistance. Seeing as we already established that is what surrendering mean we can conclude all these verses you claim say "stop fighting when they stop fighting" pretty much says kill them all until they surrender, and we already know what happens to captured combatants, death or conversion.
    "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest."

    -Benjamin Franklin
    ^One of our (our as in American no offence to non Americans) Founding Fathers and one of my personal heroes.

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