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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    It is obvious you haven't from the amount of times I have had to correct you on things. I did explain it, read the quote. Also every person has faith in something, don't you have faith in that there is no afterlife? ?
    Faith is not equivalent to what you posted. Learn to read what you copy paste please.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Faith is not equivalent to what you posted. Learn to read what you copy paste please.
    You didn't ask for the definition of faith. Your argument was that faith isn't a sufficient reason to believe in anything, even though you have faith in that there is no afterlife.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    You didn't ask for the definition of faith. Your argument was that faith isn't a sufficient reason to believe in anything, even though you have faith in that there is no afterlife.
    See this is why you should define faith. Because I am agnostic on the afterlife. I do not know. Now, if you claim to know, you should be able to explain/prove why.


    -----------------

    Let me explain a simple concept and see if you agree.

    I have no proof of X.

    X may exist or not exist.

    Should we believe X exist?
    (Do you think it's wise to claim that X exist when I have no proof, evidence, or sufficient justification in believing in X?)

    Now of course, you are going to special plead for your religion or belief., but i'm not talking about just your religion. I'm talking about everything. Unicorns, leprachauns, bigfoot, ghost, etc. etc. Even the stuff we know exist, must have proof of it's existence, otherwise it is no different from the imagination.

    Please explain to me why faith is a good reason to believe anything.
    Last edited by Empire; 11-01-2014 at 02:12 PM.


  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post

    See this is why you should define faith. Because I am agnostic on the afterlife. I do not know. Now, if you claim to know, you should be able to explain/prove why.


    -----------------

    Let me explain a simple concept and see if you agree.

    I have no proof of X.

    X may exist or not exist.

    Should we believe X exist?
    (Do you think it's wise to claim that X exist when I have no proof, evidence, or sufficient justification in believing in X?)

    Now of course, you are going to special plead for your religion or belief., but i'm not talking about just your religion. I'm talking about everything. Unicorns, leprachauns, bigfoot, ghost, etc. etc. Even the stuff we know exist, must have proof of it's existence, otherwise it is no different from the imagination.

    Please explain to me why faith is a good reason to believe anything.
    Faith is to consider something to be sure and reliable without doubting. There is more than enough proof for God and nothing is comparable to God. The fact that billions of people believe in God and none believe in Unicorns, leprachauns etc itself shows that there is proof for God. Those billions of people have found their proof, no human believes in something without what they deem is proof to them.

    Now you are probably asking how can I find this proof? Before you find it, you have ask yourself a very important question. Do you actually want to believe in God? This may sound simple, but have a deep think. When someone makes an argument for God, does it make you want to read and understand what he is saying, or does it make you annoyed and angry? Is the thoughts in your head trying to help you understand, or is the first thing you think about a counter argument?

    If you know that you want to believe in God then find somewhere quiet and read about it. Belief in God is a personal thing that you have to find for yourself. Arguing, especially over the internet, is pointless. If you have genuine questions, I can try to help rationalise them for you.

    Personally, the reasons I believe in God are in three groups: personal reasons, logical reasons, and the Quran.
    Science is learning about the creation, Islam is learning about the creator.

    Alif, Lam, Meem. - 2:1 Quran
    This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah(God) - 2:2 Quran
    Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, - 2:3 Quran
    And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]. - 2:4 Quran
    Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful. - 2:5 Quran
    Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. - 2:6 Quran

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Faith is to consider something to be sure and reliable without doubting. There is more than enough proof for God and nothing is comparable to God. The fact that billions of people believe in God and none believe in Unicorns, leprachauns etc itself shows that there is proof for God. Those billions of people have found their proof, no human believes in something without what they deem is proof to them.

    Now you are probably asking how can I find this proof? Before you find it, you have ask yourself a very important question. Do you actually want to believe in God? This may sound simple, but have a deep think. When someone makes an argument for God, does it make you want to read and understand what he is saying, or does it make you annoyed and angry? Is the thoughts in your head trying to help you understand, or is the first thing you think about a counter argument?

    If you know that you want to believe in God then find somewhere quiet and read about it. Belief in God is a personal thing that you have to find for yourself. Arguing, especially over the internet, is pointless. If you have genuine questions, I can try to help rationalise them for you.

    Personally, the reasons I believe in God are in three groups: personal reasons, logical reasons, and the Quran.
    1.2.3.
    1. If there is proof for god(more than enough), post it.

    2. I'm a skeptic. I don't believe in anything without proof or justification for it. You want to convince me, provide your argument for god and I'll see if it isn't full of fallacies.
    (so far you've already used the population fallacy and claimed that's proof. But I'm willing to give you a shot).

    3. People believe in stupid things all the time. Just because X number of people believe in something, does not make it true.
    Last edited by Empire; 11-02-2014 at 10:21 PM.


  6. #21
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    Short answer: No
    Long answer: Nooooooo

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post

    1.2.3.
    1. If there is proof for god(more than enough), post it.

    2. I'm a skeptic. I don't believe in anything without proof or justification for it. You want to convince me, provide your argument for god and I'll see if it isn't full of fallacies.
    (so far you've already used the population fallacy and claimed that's proof. But I'm willing to give you a shot).

    3. People believe in stupid things all the time. Just because X number of people believe in something, does not make it true.
    Again you completely ignore what I said. If you want proof then you would go look for it. You are after a pointless argument.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Again you completely ignore what I said. If you want proof then you would go look for it. You are after a pointless argument.
    You just said you had proof.


    Either you do or you do not, if you do: Please post it.(I'm willing to listen).


  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    You just said you had proof.


    Either you do or you do not, if you do: Please post it.(I'm willing to listen).
    What is the point, you don't want to believe in God?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    What is the point, you don't want to believe in God?
    Hey, if you don't want to provide an argument, I can just assert that you don't have one.

    It's your choice here. Either man up or keep crying that it's "my fault" that you can't post your argument..


  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Hey, if you don't want to provide an argument, I can just assert that you don't have one.

    It's your choice here. Either man up or keep crying that it's "my fault" that you can't post your argument..
    Sorry for not wasting my time in a pointless argument with someone who doesn't want to believe in God in the first place.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Sorry for not wasting my time in a pointless argument with someone who doesn't want to believe in God in the first place.
    I'd gladly believe in a god if you could provide a sufficient argument for it.

    But if you are going to refuse to do so, then I don't see how it's my fault.
    Last edited by Empire; 11-02-2014 at 11:14 PM.


  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    I'd gladly believe in a god if you could provide a sufficient argument for it.

    But if you are going to refuse to do so, then I don't see how it's my fault.
    I'll judge whether you truly want to believe in God if you answer this question truthfully, then I'll post some logical arguments for why I believe in God:
    Now you are probably asking how can I find this proof? Before you find it, you have ask yourself a very important question. Do you actually want to believe in God? This may sound simple, but have a deep think. When someone makes an argument for God, does it make you want to read and understand what he is saying, or does it make you annoyed and angry? Is the thoughts in your head trying to help you understand, or is the first thing you think about a counter argument?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    I'll judge whether you truly want to believe in God if you answer this question truthfully, then I'll post some logical arguments for why I believe in God:
    Well I don't really care if you want to judge w/e. It's your choice if you want to provide an argument for your belief or not.
    That's more than one question tho....

    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Now you are probably asking how can I find this proof?
    Actually no. I'm not asking how anymore. I've already searched pretty much every available route. You want to tell me there is some secret cave in Antartica, then you better have something to prove it to me first.


    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Do you actually want to believe in God??
    Does it really matter if I do? Surely god's existence is not based upon my wanting or not. I do not believe narwhals exist simply because I "wanted to believe" they do, nor do I believe anything exist simply from my want. Now I may want X thing to be true, but that does not make it true nor does I have any impact on it being true.

    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    When someone makes an argument for God, does it make you want to read and understand what he is saying, or does it make you annoyed and angry?
    That's called a false dichotomy. Generally neither. I just like to see if the argument for god can get through even halfway without using a major fallacy. It's entertaining to watch people try and prove something backwards.


    Quote Originally Posted by robinvanpersie View Post
    Is the thoughts in your head trying to help you understand, or is the first thing you think about a counter argument?
    Well that's a bit of a dishonest question. If I presented you an argument for Hinduism, the first thing that pops up is a counter argument, right? You don't even bother to try and understand it, you just deny it because it uses an improper argument.

    The only difference between atheism and Islam in this is that atheism takes the millions of gods, and just adds yours to the pile of "not proven".


  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


    Well I don't really care if you want to judge w/e. It's your choice if you want to provide an argument for your belief or not.
    That's more than one question tho....


    Actually no. I'm not asking how anymore. I've already searched pretty much every available route. You want to tell me there is some secret cave in Antartica, then you better have something to prove it to me first.




    Does it really matter if I do? Surely god's existence is not based upon my wanting or not. I do not believe narwhals exist simply because I "wanted to believe" they do, nor do I believe anything exist simply from my want. Now I may want X thing to be true, but that does not make it true nor does I have any impact on it being true.


    That's called a false dichotomy. Generally neither. I just like to see if the argument for god can get through even halfway without using a major fallacy. It's entertaining to watch people try and prove something backwards.



    Well that's a bit of a dishonest question. If I presented you an argument for Hinduism, the first thing that pops up is a counter argument, right? You don't even bother to try and understand it, you just deny it because it uses an improper argument.

    The only difference between atheism and Islam in this is that atheism takes the millions of gods, and just adds yours to the pile of "not proven".
    Glad that's cleared up. You don't want to believe in God but you ask for proof for God. Yh I am not going to waste my time here. There is proof for one who wishes to see it.

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