Noah's Ark

[[MPGH]Ethereal]

Personally that's how I take the Bible. A bunch of stories meant to teach people good morals. Other than that it's pretty fucking hard to believe some of the shit that happened in it actually happened. There have been residue from opium poppies on the dead sea scrolls as well, indicating that the writers of the scrolls were definitely hopped up on pop. I don't really believe it was ever actually "meant" to be taken chronologically in a history standpoint, but people just took it that way because they're fanatics.

Trust me dude I've studied Theology in College. I've had plenty of knowledge especially in Christian Theology before even attending school. If the Bible wasn't meant to be taken Chronologically, then why may I ask you was the book of numbers written?
If you are not familiar with this book in the Bible, then let me elaborate my point.
Numbers was written to the people of Israel to document their journey to the Promised Land,
The majority of this book is a census made up of the generations of Jewish tribes.

[Lehsyrus]

Trust me dude I've studied Theology in College. I've had plenty of knowledge especially in Christian Theology before even attending school. If the Bible wasn't meant to be taken Chronologically, then why may I ask you was the book of numbers written?
If you are not familiar with this book in the Bible, then let me elaborate my point.
Numbers was written to the people of Israel to document their journey to the Promised Land,
The majority of this book is a census made up of the generations of Jewish tribes.

The Book of Numbers is from the Hebrew Bible which has more than just the Dead Sea Scrolls in it, in my opinion that's a completely different subject matter than going from what the Dead Sea Scrolls say themselves. I was taught (when I still went to church) by a very wise old man (wasn't a pastor but just knew what he was talking about) who learned Ancient Aramaic and read the Dead Sea Scrolls himself, The Book of Numbers was never mentioned. The only manuscripts that do coincide with the Book of Numbers are from The Old Testament, yet the dating in comparison to the manuscripts of The Old Testament show that the Book of Numbers is 6 million BCE. That leads me to believe that it was just an outline for the Old Testaments stories.

Every situation in which we learn about any Religion will have a biased side, I'm trying to keep my thoughts open to them all but it's difficult when people throw in information dealing with other religions that are based upon the original that were not in the Scrolls themselves. This is the reason why I try to stay away from Religious debates, the information we all learn about Religion will always be jaded depending on where the information is obtained from.

Lastly, I can not believe what is taught in English about Religion. My old mentor told me that the literal translations from the Scrolls to the Bible is completely off, and that the Bible in English omits much information in comparison, as well the translations are far-fetched and many times wrong. I guess where I am going with this is that there are too many variables for me to believe that the Bible was meant to be taken in chronological order, anyone can pick up a book and say it's a religion if it sounds far-fetched enough, and there are always people out there who will follow that first person and believe every word they say.

[[MPGH]Ethereal]

The Book of Numbers is from the Hebrew Bible which has more than just the Dead Sea Scrolls in it, in my opinion that's a completely different subject matter than going from what the Dead Sea Scrolls say themselves. I was taught (when I still went to church) by a very wise old man (wasn't a pastor but just knew what he was talking about) who learned Ancient Aramaic and read the Dead Sea Scrolls himself, The Book of Numbers was never mentioned. The only manuscripts that do coincide with the Book of Numbers are from The Old Testament, yet the dating in comparison to the manuscripts of The Old Testament show that the Book of Numbers is 6 million BCE. That leads me to believe that it was just an outline for the Old Testaments stories.

Every situation in which we learn about any Religion will have a biased side, I'm trying to keep my thoughts open to them all but it's difficult when people throw in information dealing with other religions that are based upon the original that were not in the Scrolls themselves. This is the reason why I try to stay away from Religious debates, the information we all learn about Religion will always be jaded depending on where the information is obtained from.

Lastly, I can not believe what is taught in English about Religion. My old mentor told me that the literal translations from the Scrolls to the Bible is completely off, and that the Bible in English omits much information in comparison, as well the translations are far-fetched and many times wrong. I guess where I am going with this is that there are too many variables for me to believe that the Bible was meant to be taken in chronological order, anyone can pick up a book and say it's a religion if it sounds far-fetched enough, and there are always people out there who will follow that first person and believe every word they say.

Why the hell would you bring the Dead Sea scrolls into this conversation?
This is a biblical conversation and you're bringing up what is considered apocryphal manuscripts..
You are also wrong, or your friend is..doesn't really matter, somebody doesn't know what their talking about.
The Dead sea scrolls were fragmented... only a few complete books were found,
4 chapters of the book of Numbers were included in this find btw.
Also, the texts were written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic..
So I doubt your "old friend" was able to make much sense of a great deal of those fragments if he only knew Aramaic...

Now back to this debate, because it's gone off track.
The bottom line here is, the Bible is the structure for the Jewish and Christian religions.
People arguing it's historical significance or validity might as well not bother with their religion anymore,
because that book is what it's based off of. Like I said, if you go and pick and choose what you want to believe in the book,
you might as well look at it the same way you look at Moby Dick. A fictional tale.

[Empire]

No..he's posing questions which in turn would bring upon a debate...

His questions are rhetorical are they not? To me, its just like every other debate starting like:

God exist, or else who could have made this earth?
^like that. He really doesn't give a shit about a debate, he's just posting his findings and asking himself a question.
----------------------------------------------------

The thing is, that christianity really doesn't depend on the old testament in truth. They pretty much disregard all laws regarding the old testament, all thats left is stories to show morals and where christianity, ergo christ, originated from.

They are SUPPOSED to follow the old testament as well as the new, but there really is no point because its like "the rules have changed" in the new testament. To be honest, its better they don't, the vibe the old testament has is sooo much worse than the new testament.
----------------

Anyway, the main point is that religion shouldn't be about factual evidence and literal translations. It should be what you take away from the story.

I mean in another 2-4k years, i bet people will question the realism of the holocaust. We might not have the proof then to back it up. Its pointless to speculate and squint so hard at something so long gone. Just take from it what you can.

[[MPGH]Ethereal]

His questions are rhetorical are they not? To me, its just like every other debate starting like:

God exist, or else who could have made this earth?
^like that. He really doesn't give a shit about a debate, he's just posting his findings and asking himself a question.
----------------------------------------------------

The thing is, that christianity really doesn't depend on the old testament in truth. They pretty much disregard all laws regarding the old testament, all thats left is stories to show morals and where christianity, ergo christ, originated from.

They are SUPPOSED to follow the old testament as well as the new, but there really is no point because its like "the rules have changed" in the new testament. To be honest, its better they don't, the vibe the old testament has is sooo much worse than the new testament.
----------------

Anyway, the main point is that religion shouldn't be about factual evidence and literal translations. It should be what you take away from the story.

I mean in another 2-4k years, i bet people will question the realism of the holocaust. We might not have the proof then to back it up. Its pointless to speculate and squint so hard at something so long gone. Just take from it what you can.

I disagree with you.
First off Christ himself said he wasn't here to abolish the commandments and Sabbaths his father established.
Secondly I find it utterly ridiculous that someone that would consider himself a Christian wouldn't believe the words in the Bible as factual,
That means any uneducated person can read the Bible and draw their own conclusions from certain events,
which may be completely wrong. This is why Pastors have jobs. I've studied under extremely well educated people that dedicated their lives to understanding the Bible. That means reading the old texts in their original languages so that there is little room for translational error. Does the Bible have an abundance of great moral parables? Yes! absolutely..and you really would need someone to help you out in understanding their true meanings. I'm a bit surprised that you're attempting to argue simple logic here..because this subject matter isn't really to hard to grasp. The Bible is the most historically signifigant piece of literature ever written, If Christans or Jews didn't take the words within literally, then what exactly would they have to base their faith off of?

He said to him, 'Do you really grasp what you are reading?' 'How can I,' the man replied, 'unless someone explains it to me?' " —Acts 8:30-31

[Empire]

I disagree with you.
First off Christ himself said he wasn't here to abolish the commandments and Sabbaths his father established.
Secondly I find it utterly ridiculous that someone that would consider himself a Christian wouldn't believe the words in the Bible as factual,
That means any uneducated person can read the Bible and draw their own conclusions from certain events,
which may be completely wrong. This is why Pastors have jobs. I've studied under extremely well educated people that dedicated their lives to understanding the Bible. That means reading the old texts in their original languages so that there is little room for translational error. Does the Bible have an abundance of great moral parables? Yes! absolutely..and you really would need someone to help you out in understanding their true meanings. I'm a bit surprised that you're attempting to argue simple logic here..because this subject matter isn't really to hard to grasp. The Bible is the most historically signifigant piece of literature ever written, If Christans or Jews didn't take the words within literally, then what exactly would they have to base their faith off of?

He said to him, 'Do you really grasp what you are reading?' 'How can I,' the man replied, 'unless someone explains it to me?' " —Acts 8:30-31

Christ said that, but do you really think anyone cares? No more sacrifices, almost all the law were abandoned.

Look, i don't give a fuck what you "studied" i'm sure you think your all that because you took a class in college. Good for you, for those of us who actually go to college, we don't give a fuck.
------------------

That being said, faith is key. Factual proof is nil on religion anyway. People who devote their lives into proving facts for religion, have wasted it.

:/

[[MPGH]Ethereal]

Christ said that, but do you really think anyone cares? No more sacrifices, almost all the law were abandoned.

Look, i don't give a fuck what you "studied" i'm sure you think your all that because you took a class in college. Good for you, for those of us who actually go to college, we don't give a fuck.
------------------

That being said, faith is key. Factual proof is nil on religion anyway. People who devote their lives into proving facts for religion, have wasted it.

:/

That's why having a debate with you about religion is a joke,
because you really don't know anything about it..
I can tell you just skim a few articles here and there and form an uneducated thesis.
DERP.. thanks for stating an obvious point I've been trying to make for three fucking pages.
Yes faith is the key. Now where exactly do you think people base their faith from?
ANCIENT LITERATURE. That's true to basically every one of the major religions known to man..
The only things in holy books that can be speculative to an individual reader would be metaphorical parables.
THAT IS IT. Not chronological events. Noah's Ark is the perfect example...
If the book was written and it's chronicling the events that took place before and after the flood,
what exactly is there to speculate here? If you believe in the words in the Bible, and you call yourself a Jew or a Christian,
and you have FAITH in God, then you accept that the events that took place WERE TRUE. Period. Not even an argument.If you go ahead and deny one crazy event in the Bible, you might as well deny every other of the numerous supernatural events that defied human logic. The same faith Christians put into Christ and believing him to be the Son of God,would be the same faith placed in believing in Moses parting the Red Sea, the story of Samson, the resurrection, and yes Noah's Ark.

[Empire]

:/ who says they can't believe what they choose? Is their some unwritten law here?

Oh wait......you couldn't be........

*Sheesh* You just proved my point and you're still angry.

"True" christian or not, people will believe what they want how they want, and from what they want.

No point in bothering with the details when it doesn't matter in relevance to an issue.

*oh an ps: No, there are levels of faith. People don't believe in god's only son just as much as they do in some obscure(not relating to noah here) story. They shouldn't, in a perfect world, but hey, that's humanity.

[[MPGH]Ethereal]

:/ who says they can't believe what they choose? Is their some unwritten law here?

Oh wait......you couldn't be........

*Sheesh* You just proved my point and you're still angry.

"True" christian or not, people will believe what they want how they want, and from what they want.

No point in bothering with the details when it doesn't matter in relevance to an issue.

*oh an ps: No, there are levels of faith. People don't believe in god's only son just as much as they do in some obscure(not relating to noah here) story. They shouldn't, in a perfect world, but hey, that's humanity.

Oh yeah..I'm so angry. Give me a break..you're the one that should be angry that you don't know how to use your brain.
I never said people can't believe what they want. I'm tired of repeating myself, and reading your same old repeating crap as well. You obviously can't grasp anything I'm trying to convey here because you're stubborn and want to win a debate that you don't even come close to gaining any solid argument pertaining to the subject at hand.
Why do you think the NASB study bible was created? This is a Bible that has each Bible verse broken down in detail by hundreds of world renowned scholars of Christianity, so that people can gain a better knowledge of what each of the verses mean, because many of them are quite cryptic. Now once people finally get a full understanding of the Bible they realize there is no "Oh this is what I think Christ was talking about" Or "Well this is what I get out of this passage"
Nope. Doesn't work that way. According to the Bible Christ didn't come to spread peace among man,
he came to let people know, this is the way it is. This is how you come to the father. If man had his own interpretations on how to get to Heaven, and how to keep from submitting to Satan's will, then there would be no need for Christ.
So yes, if you are a Christian..and you really think you got things figured out despite a lack of biblical knowledge,
then good luck.What the hell is the point of going half way in your beliefs.
A truly faithful person takes their beliefs serious. If not, there is no point to it.

[Empire]

My debate is that there was no need for a debate.......

I win simply by presenting my debate.
----------------------------------------

NASB: i dunno? Why is half the church shit funded? Why not give it to charity?

Church research, to a certain extent, is extremely wasteful. I'd rather have nasa back.
--------------------------------------------

?_? A truly faithful person? Oh boy, I never remember calling myself that of all things.

I got enough knowledge of the bible, being a christian and all, but i hardly think that it matters given the topics(including this one) are merely based off of someone making generic "well how did this happen" statements. Given that they are usually talking about god and his works, i'd think people would understand the context better though.

[[MPGH]Ethereal]

My debate is that there was no need for a debate.......

I win simply by presenting my debate.
----------------------------------------

NASB: i dunno? Why is half the church shit funded? Why not give it to charity?

Church research, to a certain extent, is extremely wasteful. I'd rather have nasa back.
--------------------------------------------

?_? A truly faithful person? Oh boy, I never remember calling myself that of all things.

I got enough knowledge of the bible, being a christian and all, but i hardly think that it matters given the topics(including this one) are merely based off of someone making generic "well how did this happen" statements. Given that they are usually talking about god and his works, i'd think people would understand the context better though.

See..you're not even on topic anymore.
No one said anything about "Church" research..the hell is that...?
We're talking about literal interpretation. Your point is "Hey the Bible is whatever you get out of it"
My view differs from that and you think you won? You haven't won shit pal..
That's cool that you're a Christian..great man, whatever floats your boat..
But I don't really see how you even take your beliefs seriously, if you don't even take all of the book seriously...
From what I gathered from my conversation with you is that you don't feel Pastor teachers are important,
Well if that were the case, then why were so many "witches" burned by Christians in Salem?
Maybe if they had a good teacher that knew their shit, maybe that would have never happened.
Or how about all these Doomsday Christians that tell us when the world is going to end?
Maybe if they would understand their own book,
they would know that Not even the Angels in Heaven knows when the end of days will be.
So I hold my stance firmly,
there is absolutely plenty of certainty in the Bible when it comes to many events...
It's not just what "you" or anyone else gathers out of something. Learn the difference between Chronology and parables.Pretty ironic that when I had those epic debates with Visible,
that you basically agreed with my points in refuting all his dumbass statements,
I mean hey..that was his interpretation of the Bible right?
But oh how the tables turn when I'm debating you.

[Empire]

But i'm winning because your mad..........about a topic that i don't really care for............that you keep going off track from.


@ Salem : Well yeah, but then again human stupidity works there too. Not like it was a whole lot of people though, so w/e.
-------------------------------------------------------

So in the end, you'd debate stuff that you make up a reason to care for. I don't.

I'm not really into the whole "lets make up a bullshit topic that has no relevance to any issue" then debate about it.

[[MPGH]Ethereal]

But i'm winning because your mad..........about a topic that i don't really care for............that you keep going off track from.


@ Salem : Well yeah, but then again human stupidity works there too. Not like it was a whole lot of people though, so w/e.
-------------------------------------------------------

So in the end, you'd debate stuff that you make up a reason to care for. I don't.

I'm not really into the whole "lets make up a bullshit topic that has no relevance to any issue" then debate about it.

If you don't care to debate this topic, then why exactly are you here again?
This is really what I mean about making statements that are contradictions..
It has relevance, since this is the Religion section of the Debate forums,
and he clearly brought up Noah's Ark..
He's obviously posing these questions to be debated,
otherwise why in the hell would he post it here? Not that hard to comprehend.
Empire, I troll MPGH like it's my job. You of all people couldn't even come close to making me mad..so hate to burst your bubble.

[SeemsGood.]

LOL Noah Ark i learned at elementary

[Empire]

If you don't care to debate this topic, then why exactly are you here again?
This is really what I mean about making statements that are contradictions..
It has relevance, since this is the Religion section of the Debate forums,
and he clearly brought up Noah's Ark..
He's obviously posing these questions to be debated,
otherwise why in the hell would he post it here? Not that hard to comprehend.
Empire, I troll MPGH like it's my job. You of all people couldn't even come close to making me mad..so hate to burst your bubble.

:/ But my point remains, going after a bible story for factual evidence is silly.


Your taking a religious script and trying to provide factual evidence.

Those two things are contradictory in nature.