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    EndRiT's Avatar
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    Lightbulb [HARDCORE SERIOUS] Proof there is NO GOD

    Proof #1: The theodice problem:
    We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe?

    Proof #2: Heisenberg's uncertainty principle
    Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applies only to humans, since we a restricted to only one dimension of time. God, existing in two or more dimensions of time can know all properties of all particles, since He can exist at any point on our line of time any numbers of times. Therefore, God can measure both the position of a particle, remain at the same point on our line of time, then measure the speed of the same particle. Two dimensions of time allow one to do some pretty awesome things. Think about the implications of this characteristic of God.

    Proof #3: The ontological evidence
    It is necessary that God is a being that is worth worshipping, so if there is no being worth worshipping there cannot be a God. Not any of the existing religions can provide such a God. Well if there is a being that has either failed or not tried to communicate with us that being is not worth worshipping either, so the ontological evidence against God holds, even without complete knowledge of the world.

    There are several hundred million Christians who believe the Christian God is worth worshipping. However, there are other religions which worship other Gods. Therefore, this cannot be a valid criteria for determining whether God exists or not.

    God both has and continues to communicate with humans. Men with which He has communicated have written His words in the Bible. Those who are born-again Christians communicate with God on a daily basis. When I was an agnostic, I didn't believe this could be possible. However, when I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, His Spirit indwells me and talks to me (The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16).

    There is a test, based on the ontological evidence against God, that you can do to try the existence of God. Pray, and ask God to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that God exists, send me the evidence. If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible: (1) God does not exist, (2) God does not want to or (3) God can't give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1). So if you get no response there is no God.

    Proof #4: Occam's razor
    Occam's razor was formulated by William of Occam (1285-1349) and says: "Non est ponenda pluralites sive necessitate" or in English: "Do not multiply entities unless necessarily". It is a principle for scientific labor which means that one should use a simple explanation with a few explanatory premises before a more complex one.

    Let's say that everything must be created, and that was done by an omnipotent God. A God which stands above time, space, moral and existence, which is self containing and in himself has his own cause. This entity can surely be replaced by the known world. The world stands above time, space, moral, existence, is self containing and in it has it's own meaning.

    Proof #5: Some things are impossible to do
    There are things that are impossible to do. For example nobody can cover a two-dimensional surface with two-dimensional circles, without making them overlap. It is impossible to add the numbers two and two and get 666. You can not go back in time (without passing an infinite entropy barrier). The number of things that are impossible to do are almost infinite. If God were to be almighty he would be able to do them, but it's impossible to do so.

    Proof #6: God's omniscience restricts His free will
    Also, if God knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus God's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If God has no free will God is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If God stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if God stands above all dimensions God is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!

    Proof #7: God cannot be almighty and allow free will simultaneously
    Besides there can exist no free wills at all if God is almighty. If you had a free will, God wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.

    The two dimensions of time take care of this one, too. God knows what each person will do and can put him anywhere in our time line to accomplish His purposes. Complete free-will and complete predestination is possible in two dimensions of time. However, this concept may require some time to think about.

    Proof #8: God must be created so why does the universe need a Creator
    If everything must have been created, then God must have been created as well. If God is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

    The Christian God exists in two dimensions of time, by definition being uncreated. The universe exists in only one dimension of time, which Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose tell us must have begun at the moment of the Big Bang. Therefore the universe must have been created at the beginning of our dimension of time. Most scientists agree that the universe had a beginning. It is possible that some multiverse (super-universe) created our universe, but there is no observational evidence to support this idea. Despite the lack of evidence, most atheists who know anything about cosmology believe in the existence of some kind of multiverse.

    Proof #9: If God created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent.
    The logical conclusion is that God must live outside of our dimensions of time and space in addition to living within our dimensions of time and space. The unstated assumption that God cannot live both within and outside space and time simultaneously is false. Since science tells us for God to exist and to have created the universe, He must exist in at least 11 dimensions of space and time (the four within the dimensions of our universe and at least 7 outside of those dimensions). Therefore He is extradimensional, and probably not composed of ordinary matter (12), but this does not make Him non-existent. The Bible is also clear that God exists both within our universe and outside of it

    Proof #10: God has never contacted me. He must not exist.
    We would never notice God: This is not an evidence against God, but rather describes the lack of sense in praying to a God who stands above time.

    Proof #11: God cannot be involved in our universe if He stands above our time dimension
    If God stands above time and created time and space he can not be the first link in a time dependent chain of events. Rather he would affect every step in all chains, and we would only see God in the laws of physics (Davies, 1983, chapter 4). This God is an unnecessary entity to describe the world and should be removed with Occam's razor.

    Proof #12: If God existed, prayer would have already changed the world into the best possible world.
    If somebody would pray to God and God would listen, the laws would change to achieve the desired result. Thus the world would be different and the prayer would never have been said. Besides God would already (in an "above time" sense of view) know that you would pray, and already have changed the world. Prayers would be totally meaningless. We would already live in the best world possible, and any prayer would be to doubt the wisdom of God.

    Proof#13: Only things that can be sensed with the five senses are meaningful to discus. Therefore, all discussion about God is meaningless.
    Logical positivism is based upon the verification principle, which states that for a statement to be meaningful, it has to be either true by definition or verifiable by one or more of the five senses. This means that all discussion about God should be considered meaningless. However, the verification principle itself fails its own test, since it cannot be verified by any of the five senses. It is a self-refuting principle, and, therefore, logically flawed.

    Proof #14: If God exists, how can we know what religion properly describes Him?
    If God is so mysterious, how can we know anything about him? Through the Bible? How do we know that the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedha books, for example, are the words of God? (or the Bible if you believe in any of the other two books). Considering the cruelties that have been made in the name of God, how do we know that not all religions are made by Satan?


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    icuigorz's Avatar
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    when you die. you will see.

    read the bible and you will find the answer and proof to all those questions.

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    Oooor,

    Read my thread and don't spam.

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    I agree, I seriously doubt you read the whole thread. Nor did I, but after I clean my room (takes a couple minutes) I'll reply with my opinion.

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    This is more like proof there is no Christ. :/

    Rather than facts against God, it's more like facts against the Bible.



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    I don't see why you would want to start a thread about this.

    Anyways, I picked out a random proof. The one with the 5 senses.

    Someone needs to think more...
    Do you have a brain?

    Has anyone ever smelled your brain, has anyone ever seen your brain, has anyone ever touched your brain, has anyone ever tasted your brain, has anyone ever heard your brain? NO...

    So according to that proof, you don't have a brain.

    I forgot to mention, some of your proofs talk about how god had to be created by something, then another being had to create that creator and so on and so forth. This may be true, but it still proves that there is a superior being, and that is what people worship.


    About that Evil thing:

    Maybe god did create evil, but I thought one of god's angels turned evil (Christianity). Evil is the absence of god.
    Is there such thing as darkness?
    No.
    Darkness is only the absence of light. Light has no restrictions to the level that it can achieve. Darkness can only appear when there is no light.
    Is there such thing as cold?
    No.
    Same as above. Cold is only the absence of heat.



    Proof #6: God's omniscience restricts His free will
    Also, if God knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus God's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If God has no free will God is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If God stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if God stands above all dimensions God is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!

    Last I heard, only we, the humans, are bound by fate. God plans our destiny. God's actions aren't predestined, our actions are predetermined by him.


    Lol, what a retard I am.
    I just realized that all these proofs are mere assumptions of what god really is. You can't decide what god can do and what he can't do. According to all religions, god(s) is/are being(s) that can not be imagined by man.
    Last edited by Hyperion; 11-17-2007 at 05:48 PM.

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    if god did exist no one would suffer. any religion that opposes satan is also incorrect in that there are two sides to everything. if god created good. satan created evil. i personally dont believe in god. when i die. my brain will cease to function thus will the rest of my body. i will be cremated and thus will be the end of me. theres nothing fancy. i believe religions are man made. set up for people to abide by certain morals in order to deffer our future or present from becoming consumed with chaos. all these holy books are stories. that scare people into behaving as society expects them to. and if god does exist. why wouldnt he include evolution? i mean in the story of adam and eve. there was a snake. how did he ever come about? there were jelly fish and other animals well before the snake came along. and we have proof. so where the heck did they come from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by someone View Post
    if god did exist no one would suffer. any religion that opposes satan is also incorrect in that there are two sides to everything. if god created good. satan created evil. i personally dont believe in god. when i die. my brain will cease to function thus will the rest of my body. i will be cremated and thus will be the end of me. theres nothing fancy. i believe religions are man made. set up for people to abide by certain morals in order to deffer our future or present from becoming consumed with chaos. all these holy books are stories. that scare people into behaving as society expects them to. and if god does exist. why wouldnt he include evolution? i mean in the story of adam and eve. there was a snake. how did he ever come about? there were jelly fish and other animals well before the snake came along. and we have proof. so where the heck did they come from?
    If we didn't suffer, we wouldn't need god.

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    you forgot the fact that's it's logically impossible that an invisible being that no one's ever seen and lives in outer space and was never created, but in fact was always there, created the world using his magical powers; and demands that we believe in him whilst giving us no proof (no, nature isn't proof you stupid fucks), and telling us to telepathicallu talk to him and praise him. oh and if somehow we don't believe this he's going to send us to have our bodies ripped apart and put back together while being burned forever and ever.

    makes sense, right?

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    Hyperion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ace76543 View Post
    you forgot the fact that's it's logically impossible that an invisible being that no one's ever seen and lives in outer space and was never created, but in fact was always there, created the world using his magical powers; and demands that we believe in him whilst giving us no proof (no, nature isn't proof you stupid fucks), and telling us to telepathicallu talk to him and praise him. oh and if somehow we don't believe this he's going to send us to have our bodies ripped apart and put back together while being burned forever and ever.

    makes sense, right?
    Hey, but someone had to create the world and the universe.

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    I believe in god as much as I believe in the tooth fairy.

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    EndRiT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehNoob View Post
    Hey, but someone had to create the world and the universe.
    Hey, but someone had to create GOD

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    ace76543's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehNoob View Post
    Hey, but someone had to create the world and the universe.
    no they didn't. that doesn't make sense. you're thinking too small. this isn't a toy car or a phone, IT'S THE UNIVERSE. are you saying someone can create infinite space? if so, who created him? who created him?

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    Hehe,

    beat you to it ace

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    Mike Mika IV's Avatar
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    What/who created god? That's like asking "Which came first, the egg or chicken?"

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