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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetamay View Post
    Consumers entertain exploitation in the market all the time - that is not a surprise to me or anyone else. It makes sense. I am just pointing out the insidious evil plot everyone seems to be falling for.
    Wallstreet is predicting the Ps4 to come out of the gate stronger than the Xbone because that's how it's always been,
    with the Xbone gaining momentum only further down the road with exclusive releases.
    If you think about it the only major difference with the PS4 is their newly implemented psn+ charge.
    Otherwise they are sticking to what has always made them successful. If ain't broke don't fix it.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetamay View Post
    Consumers entertain exploitation in the market all the time - that is not a surprise to me or anyone else. It makes sense. I am just pointing out the insidious evil plot everyone seems to be falling for.



    Shouldn't they? Let me remind you. The XBox is the DirectXBox. Microsoft threw OpenGL into a corner and raped it 16 times over with their DirectXBox to thank (and a bunch of fumbling morons working over at OpenGL as well)

    Let me also remind you that the Playstation, Mac and Linux all use OpenGL. Are you a PC user, or a Mac user?
    Even some of Microsoft's Operating Systems aren't DirectX Friendly, namely Windows NT 4.0.

    Also, one must not ridicule Mac OSX. Mac OSX IS Unix certified, so if you are going to ridicule it, you might as well ridicule AIX, HPUX, Solaris and every other real Unix.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lehsyrus View Post

    The reason Sony is rubbing this into Microsoft's open wound, is because this is how the facts play out. Microsoft is attempting to cut out the consumer from any potential profit to increase their own. It is reasonable to understand WHY MS is doing such, however it is NOT reasonable for MS to give the consumer such a stiff shoulder. By doing so, MS has blatantly proven it cares nothing about its consumer and is solely a business after profits with zero regard to the person being affected by such actions.
    Like I said, the question of whether it is or isn't legal to resell your games (and your argument that it is illegal to resell then conflicts with Doc's argument that it is legal to resell them) isn't relevant. It is significantly less relevant when you consider the console will have market-share all over the world with varying laws. What is, is the question of whether it is fair or not to developers - but even that isn't significant to the discussion much at all either. So I am going to ignore the first two paragraphs of your response hoping that this is all I am missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lehsyrus View Post

    The reason Sony is rubbing this into Microsoft's open wound, is because this is how the facts play out. Microsoft is attempting to cut out the consumer from any potential profit to increase their own. It is reasonable to understand WHY MS is doing such, however it is NOT reasonable for MS to give the consumer such a stiff shoulder. By doing so, MS has blatantly proven it cares nothing about its consumer and is solely a business after profits with zero regard to the person being affected by such actions.
    All this is besides the fact.

    When you say Microsoft you imply that it is their will, and not the will of the game developers. It is in both of the two parties interests to advance towards what MS proposes regarding DRM protection. The argument is this: Is Sony exploiting the fact that they cannot offer this to their developers.

    If you think Sony is being the 'good guys' and not ones who "care nothing about its consumer and is solely a business after profits with zero regard to the person being affected by such actions" then you are being played. Sony doesn't give a fuck about anything other than the same thing MS does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisti View Post


    Even some of Microsoft's Operating Systems aren't DirectX Friendly, namely Windows NT 4.0.

    Also, one must not ridicule Mac OSX. Mac OSX IS Unix certified, so if you are going to ridicule it, you might as well ridicule AIX, HPUX, Solaris and every other real Unix.

    I cannot appreciate why Linux would have purpose for a powerful graphics framework like DirectX.
    Last edited by radnomguywfq3; 06-11-2013 at 08:31 PM.



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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetamay View Post
    Like I said, the question of whether it is or isn't legal to resell your games (and your argument that it is illegal to resell then conflicts with Doc's argument that it is legal to resell them) isn't relevant. It is significantly less relevant when you consider the console will have market-share all over the world with varying laws. What is, is the question of whether it is fair or not to developers - but even that isn't significant to the discussion much at all either. So I am going to ignore the first two paragraphs of your response hoping that this is all I am missing.


    All this is besides the fact.

    When you say Microsoft you imply that it is their will, and not the will of the game developers. It is in both of the two parties interests to advance towards what MS proposes regarding DRM protection. The argument is this: Is Sony exploiting the fact that they cannot offer this to their developers.

    If you think Sony is being the 'good guys' and not ones who "care nothing about its consumer and is solely a business after profits with zero regard to the person being affected by such actions" then you are being played. Sony doesn't give a fuck about anything other than the same thing MS does.




    I cannot appreciate why Linux would have purpose for a powerful graphics framework like DirectX.
    The legality of it does however matter, even so the laws vary in multiple countries. The dependent countries that have a higher volume of traffic in the gaming retail hold very similar laws regarding these matters. In the US, the UK, and Japan, the resale of used video games has been brought to court and the latter won, resale is allowed for video games without the sale of a licensing for the product itself rather than the data. When it comes to the sale of the product and not the digital goods itself, as seen with AutoCAD court rulings, the software itself was declared being sold as a license to utilize the software, not being sold as the digital goods themselves (the case was about a man buying bulk AutoCAD software at an office sale and reselling on eBay, I forget the specifics).

    Yes, Sony is in it to make money, that is the number one goal of any organization that is for-profit. This is fact. However my statement revolves on the specifics. Microsoft is willing to sacrifice the consumer for profit entirely. Sony is working by appeasing to the consumer, and still gives the developer the option to utilize DRM if they so please. That is the developers sole decision, which gives respect to both the consumer and the developer.

    And what do you mean by "can't offer this to developers"? Are you saying that Sony can't force their console to be DRM-dependent? If so, that is a very broad statement, as with Sony's team of programmers I highly doubt creating a DRM-dependent console would really be too difficult.

    To your last quote to Kallisti, come on Jet you work with computers, you know Linux and Unix aren't the same thing

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lehsyrus View Post
    And what do you mean by "can't offer this to developers"? Are you saying that Sony can't force their console to be DRM-dependent? If so, that is a very broad statement, as with Sony's team of programmers I highly doubt creating a DRM-dependent console would really be too difficult.
    DRM has been a very difficult field of development. We can definitely appreciate that, seeing how Microsoft is incorporating network with its DRM - it could be new and unprecedented DRM technology (as is commonly seen in this field.) On what grounds to you suggest creating "DRM De-pendant" hardware technology is easy? It definitely is not, companies invest millions into research of this only to have it cracked in weeks. It is nowhere near easy.

    I am not suggesting it is something Sony couldn't do, but what I am suggest is that it wasn't laid out and planned - and further that they either aren't willing to invest into it, or are otherwise (as they very likely are now) way out of time to do something like this.

    To your last quote to Kallisti, come on Jet you work with computers, you know Linux and Unix aren't the same thing
    It is even more absurd to suggest Unix has a purpose for a real-time graphics framework like DirectX.
    Last edited by radnomguywfq3; 06-11-2013 at 08:59 PM.



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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetamay View Post
    That's an entirely different argument, it being illegal or not (and I am not entirely convinced that it is legal - hence why I haven't replied to your response yet, I'll look into it on my own a little later) is entirely irreverent to the argument I state in my initial post. It being illegal or not has no meaning to the argument - is it fair to the developers is maybe a relevant question.


    That is yet to be seen.
    It is relevant when your question pertains to the unfair trading and reselling of games, particularly when such implication is false to begin with. But I'll try my best to digress and answer it in a different way.

    As far as features against sharing, there were never any features to begin with. It was always open to developers whether or not they want their games to be resold or lent out, and it continues to be this way. Sony encouraging the sharing of video games (which isn't the case, they are merely keeping the practices that have always been in place) does not effect developers one bit. Only first-party Sony games will adhere to Sony policy, any other developer or publisher can do as they like in regards to DRM, always online, prohibition of used game sale etc. It has always been this way. That's why a question of fairness to developers is irrelevant. Developers always had it their way no matter which platform they chose.

    In regards to Sony's conference and them "exploiting" a feature that was always in place is merely pandering to us gamers and increasing the general hype around the PS4. Developers give zero fucks about a platforms stance on used games demonstrated by a short video and a couple of bullet points at a conference, they care about which platforms will give them the most freedom, they care about which platform will do better, which console will we rather buy. Right now that's the PS4.

    Sony aren't trying to cover up anything. They aren't lacking any security feature as such things were always in the developers hands. Microsoft are adding features that were never needed in the hopes that developers will think that they wont have to create their own policies and restrictions and shift towards the Xbone, which is proving to be a failure. Developers like to abide by their own rules, they don't like it when the platform they're releasing on has done all the work for them especially when such work will turn away a lot of potential buyers.

    I think Microsoft has partially realised this and are trying make back lost ground. Damn straight they're going to lose more money from lost sales than they make with publishing deals and platform exclusives.

    TL;DR Developers like being in control of their product and they won't like Microsoft doing the dirty work that the dev's have no control over.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post

    As far as features against sharing, there were never any features to begin with. It was always open to developers whether or not they want their games to be resold or lent out, and it continues to be this way. Sony encouraging the sharing of video games (which isn't the case, they are merely keeping the practices that have always been in place) does not effect developers one bit. Only first-party Sony games will adhere to Sony policy, any other developer or publisher can do as they like in regards to DRM, always online, prohibition of used game sale etc. It has always been this way. That's why a question of fairness to developers is irrelevant. Developers always had it their way no matter which platform they chose.
    How does software level DRM (I.e one time CD key) regulate the trading and resale of games at all. All it does is make it impossible. What software DRM model would allow for this? I can't think of one implemented inside of the game itself and not the console. The only in-game system I can see working would be for each individual developer to host a server where they can track their games? That would be an incredible security risk to Microsoft.

    Developers give zero fucks about a platforms stance on used games demonstrated by a short video and a couple of bullet points at a conference, they care about which platforms will give them the most freedom, they care about which platform will do better, which console will we rather buy. Right now that's the PS4.
    You can't honestly believe that this is all Microsoft gives to major game development organizations. I think game developers _DO_ care about DRM, and that implementing it can lead to greater profit shares. Ofcourse game developers also care about where the market is (as you said) but they also care about a million other things, including my prior point.

    Sony aren't trying to cover up anything. They aren't lacking any security feature as such things were always in the developers hands. Microsoft are adding features that were never needed in the hopes that developers will think that they wont have to create their own policies and restrictions and shift towards the Xbone, which is proving to be a failure. Developers like to abide by their own rules, they don't like it when the platform they're releasing on has done all the work for them especially when such work will turn away a lot of potential buyers.
    They are lacking a real DRM that can regulate trading of games. As I said above, what kind of DRM model could be implemented inside of the game to manage this? One that wouldn't require each individual game developer to host a server of their own to track their products (which would be a security risk on its own)
    Last edited by radnomguywfq3; 06-11-2013 at 09:17 PM.



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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetamay View Post
    DRM has been a very difficult field of development. We can definitely appreciate that, seeing how Microsoft is incorporating network with its DRM - it could be new and unprecedented DRM technology (as is commonly seen in this field.) On what grounds to you suggest creating "DRM De-pendant" hardware technology is easy? It definitely is not, companies invest millions into research of this only to have it cracked in weeks. It is nowhere near easy.

    I am not suggesting it is something Sony couldn't do, but what I am suggest is that it wasn't laid out and planned - and further that they either aren't willing to invest into it, or are otherwise (as they very likely are now) way out of time to do something like this.



    It is even more absurd to suggest Unix has a purpose for a real-time graphics framework like DirectX.
    I understand it is not necessarily "easy" as I had mentioned before, I phrased that incorrectly. I mean it would be a task that Sony's development team would be able to tackle considering how far they have come with the PlayStation. It is a difficult field in general to develop, but with the resources Sony has I don't see it to be a problem for them to initialize. I also wouldn't say they were out of time, considering these software giants start development of the next console even before the current one is released (planning stages at least), it would be something they would have decided to put into development early on. A company such as Sony, nor Microsoft to that matter just throw things into development at the last minute. They may leave room to work with possible setbacks by the other company, or for a feature to be expanded, but to completely develop a system that would be DRM-dependent would take planning from the very beginning.

    And I am not saying Unix is designed for development, I was poking at you saying Linux when speaking of the Mac OS, just having a little fun. No way in hell is better than a Windows kernel, that we can agree on.

  9. #24
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    This whole thread is stupid, Sony could easily as hell implement the same DRM that Microsoft has installed. They didn't do very well with the PS3, it took four-five years to turn a profit, compared to the PS2, which was a mega hit. They had arrogance going into the PS3 due to the PS2, and they paid the price, tying in 2nd place in which the Wii did what the PS2 did, except without the library of games. Microsoft is getting arrogant due to back to back increases in Xbox popularity, and seems like trying to build a "consumer experience" for consoles like Apple, they probably expect the same growth from a statistical standpoint, and maybe hope to conquer over seas territories this time, because it almost smashed the PS3 in NA.

    This generation has MS feeling arrogant, Nintendo trying to gimmic another Wii, Sony trying to pull another PS2 by winning over the consumers and not repeating their past mistakes, and by the looks of it, Sony will win. Games will dictate long term sales, but the initial momentum will be with Sony, and anyone with a brain can see that. Might shift games over to the PS4, causing the momentum to build in the long run, who knows. Microsoft might pull a 360 (hueuheuhe pun) and reverse course, but the damage from the negative press will still hurt them to a certain degree. Ever since Ballmer took over, Microsoft has been pulling stupid move after stupid move IMO.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetamay View Post
    How does software level DRM (I.e one time CD key) regulate the trading and resale of games at all. All it does is make it impossible. What software DRM model would allow for this? I can't think of one implemented inside of the game itself and not the console. The only in-game system I can see working would be for each individual developer to host a server where they can track their games? That would be an incredible security risk to Microsoft.


    You can't honestly believe that this is all Microsoft gives to major game development organizations. I think game developers _DO_ care about DRM, and that implementing it can lead to greater profit shares. Ofcourse game developers also care about where the market is (as you said) but they also care about a million other things, including my prior point.


    They are lacking a real DRM that can regulate trading of games. As I said above, what kind of DRM model could be implemented inside of the game to manage this? One that wouldn't require each individual game developer to host a server of their own to track their products (which would be a security risk on its own)
    You've never heard of developers hosting their own auth servers? Really Jetamay?

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lehsyrus View Post
    I mean it would be a task that Sony's development team would be able to tackle considering how far they have come with the PlayStation.
    Quote Originally Posted by arunforce View Post
    This whole thread is stupid, Sony could easily as hell implement the same DRM that Microsoft has installed.
    This seems to be what discussion has boiled down to.

    I am not saying, that, by any means, it is impossible for PS4 to implement and match the DRM Microsoft. What I am saying is they didn't think it through nearly as thoroughly as Microsoft did. I am suggesting that Console DRM was not in the minds of the Sony Developers neither was the idea of turning it into a FEATURE for developers in the same way as it was in Microsoft's. What I am saying is that Microsoft thoroughly thought out this DRM marketing and failed only because Sony did not do it as well.

    Implementing a DRM worth implementing is something that takes a lot of time and money to do - something I think Sony was too late to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post


    You've never heard of developers hosting their own auth servers? Really Jetamay?
    They are still a security threat. Regardless, Microsoft takes this out of the hands of developers and makes it apart of their API - which makes sense if its a common feature. Also remember that Microsoft is as involved with the sale of video games and profits as much as the game developers themselves.
    Last edited by radnomguywfq3; 06-11-2013 at 09:27 PM.



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  13. #27
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    Microsoft should just stick to making operating systems and BASIC

    They honestly suck at designing stuff. The PS3 looked like a sexy beast with its glossy black, while the original xbox 360 looks like a fucking joke.

    The XBOX one looks like a huge VCR, PS4, while similar design in general, a slant makes a huge difference.

    Also, compared to the PS2, the original Xbox looked like something Mattel would release.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetamay View Post
    This seems to be what discussion has boiled down to.

    I am not saying, that, by any means, it is impossible for PS4 to implement and match the DRM Microsoft. What I am saying is they didn't think it through nearly as thoroughly as Microsoft did. I am suggesting that Console DRM was not in the minds of the Sony Developers neither was the idea of turning it into a FEATURE for developers in the same way as it was in Microsoft's. What I am saying is that Microsoft thoroughly thought out this DRM marketing and failed only because Sony did not do it as well.

    Implementing a DRM worth implementing is something that takes a lot of time and money to do - something I think Sony was too late to do.


    They are still a security threat. Regardless, Microsoft takes this out of the hands of developers and makes it apart of their API - which makes sense if its a common feature. Also remember that Microsoft is as involved with the sale of video games and profits as much as the game developers themselves.
    That forces every single developer that doesn't want unique authentication or DRM to use Microsofts DRM. They don't like that one bit. With the PS4 they can choose to do whatever they like. DRM, no DRM, whatever they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post


    That forces every single developer that doesn't want unique authentication or DRM to use Microsofts DRM.
    You're developing a game. You just paid a million dollars for the proper SDKs and licensing.

    Why in gods name do you not want free, impenetrable DRM - granted you are developing for the XBox 360 anyways.



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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetamay View Post
    This seems to be what discussion has boiled down to.

    I am not saying, that, by any means, it is impossible for PS4 to implement and match the DRM Microsoft. What I am saying is they didn't think it through nearly as thoroughly as Microsoft did. I am suggesting that Console DRM was not in the minds of the Sony Developers neither was the idea of turning it into a FEATURE for developers in the same way as it was in Microsoft's. What I am saying is that Microsoft thoroughly thought out this DRM marketing and failed only because Sony did not do it as well.

    Implementing a DRM worth implementing is something that takes a lot of time and money to do - something I think Sony was too late to do.
    There were rumors of the Xbox having this DRM for over a year, PS4 for half a year, Sony would have plenty of time to consider it as a feature, almost every AAA PC game had it these days, Diablo 3, SC2, etc. It's not like devs couldn't request it, or the hundreds of people working on it couldn't think of such a common thing. It's the fact that Sony wanted to make it as consumer friendly as possible, to repeat the PS2 success, they got shafted in the butt for the bullshit they pulled with the PS3. They didn't include region blocking for a reason, or the basic phone home crap. People aren't as "sheeple" in this day and age, social media spreads fast, bad or good.



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