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  1. #16
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    We pay taxes, but we get also money back from the gorvernment, they build roads for us, give you each month money for your child.
    For example, my parents recently bought a house, every year they get around 5000€ back from the government because the house is 'ecological'
    We pay 1200€ a month for our house, + we get 5000€ a year then we only pay around 800€ a month.
    But the house still has its value and we pay less

  2. #17
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    this is interesting, but it should be in the debate sect.

  3. #18
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    I would read it but it's like over 10 words which is obviously my maximum.
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  4. #19
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    Yeah, uh, I'm not gonna read that...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post


    No, I don't know. The Queen gets her money from YOUR taxes, but that doesn't equate to the whole world or even anyone else in the Commonwealth Union.



    Define hard workers, define soldiers. There are different pay-grades for different fields and specialties. To derive an argument from "hard workers" and "soldiers" is laughable. Hell, to lump different ranks and roles into one category as "soldiers" is sheer idiocy. You have to come up with at least two jobs in the same field but in different environments to properly show income inequality/disparity within that field. Until you provide specifics and sources you have nothing to stand on. You cannot compare a politician or a CFO to a labour worker simply because you think one works hard and the other does not. They have different specialties that draw different rewards.



    And that is bad how? Yes I'm helping my countries economy as opposed to what? If you can't provide an alternative then shits gonna stick.



    I can deny that fact. I live in a relatively liberal country with a very strong and stable economy with a government that is undertaking major infrastructural improvements across the board. My world is doing just fine at the moment. Again you are just throwing out conjecture without any weight behind it. You don't even have any anecdotal evidence. You think the world is bad, and changes are vital, and I'm supposed to trust you on this. Yeah right.



    Ah yes there is, I don't know if you know much about politics but I tend to vote based on tangible promises that I can witness. If I vote one way because I want education reform, and money to be set aside for improving schools, and I see the reform being done, and I see new school facilities being put in then I know my money has been put to good use. Do you think that politicians just shove tax money into some mystery money sink and hope nobody notices?



    "Anyone who does not agree with me is obviously ignorant or ignorant". Cool, nice to see you keeping an open mind towards opposing views not (nice tautology btw).



    I'm pretty sure they give a shit when the people are their only source of income. I'm not supportive of corruption, but I'm against painting a bad picture for the sheer sake of it. Until you know what you're talking about and provide something that supports your opinion, your argument is really nothing more than what some first world anarchist would write on his little blog to fuck wit da system.


    I'm talking about the evolution of a country here, not the whole world. You sound very patriotic to me, any chance you are?


    What I'm trying to say about the hard workers thing is pretty simple; back in the days, when politicians were there as newbies, they didn't earn even close to what they earn this day. I honestly think some jobs are overpaid compared to others, since the physical and mental input of one might be harder than the one who is not putting in so much efforts, yet gets paid more. Same goes for the risk factor and what not.


    That is my whole point here. You're contributing to a country which is working amongst the others to improve the global system. You're country is a bad example at the moment, since it is actually doing fine, but look at the more western ones, like the UK or the USA. They are slowly bashing on the civil rights.


    I can deny that fact. I live in a relatively liberal country with a very strong and stable economy with a government that is undertaking major infrastructural improvements across the board. My world is doing just fine at the moment. Again you are just throwing out conjecture without any weight behind it. You don't even have any anecdotal evidence. You think the world is bad, and changes are vital, and I'm supposed to trust you on this. Yeah right.
    I can't believe you just said that. Are you really going to deny Syria, Afghanistan, Brasil, Egypt and some of the other middle-eastern countries?
    You cannot say that the worlds way of going is fine now, because it was all started by a rip-off since the beginning anyway. There was no honest country distribution, there was a man who robbed it and then gave it over to his sons, who had enough power to find more land(UK taking over Australia for example). They made it look less bad, but we should not forget that they made your ancestors work their asses off if they would like to survive. You can ignore that fact, or you can find the decency and fight for them, even if it is history.


    Ah yes there is, I don't know if you know much about politics but I tend to vote based on tangible promises that I can witness. If I vote one way because I want education reform, and money to be set aside for improving schools, and I see the reform being done, and I see new school facilities being put in then I know my money has been put to good use. Do you think that politicians just shove tax money into some mystery money sink and hope nobody notices?
    Let me give you an example:
    Afghanistan had received a tonload of supplies from America to beat the Russians back in the day, now tell me, who paid for those supplies?
    The american government, or the citizens? I'm pretty sure all the money came from the citizens, and I am also pretty sure that they would of rather had a new park on the block instead of giving out guns who later became their enemies. They also gave out guns to Syria recently, where do you think that money came from?


    "Anyone who does not agree with me is obviously ignorant or ignorant". Cool, nice to see you keeping an open mind towards opposing views not (nice tautology btw).
    It was ment rhetorical. Ofcourse I'm open minded to everyones opinion, but I honestly think you should be more open minded too. You seem so convinced by the welfare of your own country that you do not care about the others.

    I'm pretty sure they give a shit when the people are their only source of income. I'm not supportive of corruption, but I'm against painting a bad picture for the sheer sake of it. Until you know what you're talking about and provide something that supports your opinion, your argument is really nothing more than what some first world anarchist would write on his little blog to fuck wit da system.
    Are you really asking me for proof? I mean honestly, look at China, look at America, look at North-Korea. North-Korea is living proof that they are capable of doing such corrupt things and still hide it.


    Don't get me wrong here. Surely the current system does work out, but not for everyone, and deffinately not fairly. I live in a perfectly fine situation, where my parents make a decent amount of money over the average.
    That does not yet mean we should now sit back and watch the rest of the world suffer.
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  6. #21
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    That's deep.. and too long to read... especially since it's summer..

  7. #22
    Thinking is the Enemy of Creativity. It's Self-Conscious, & Anything Self-Conscious is Lousy.
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    I think you over-thought this through. This is not even entirely true at all. I don't even think you understand what exactly you are saying in some cases. Doc has the right idea here.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Invis. View Post
    I think you over-thought this through. This is not even entirely true at all. I don't even think you understand what exactly you are saying in some cases. Doc has the right idea here.
    I know what Doc is thinking, which is what I used to think before.
    If you combine the worlds issues and the worlds welfare, then you would(if you care about the rest)also find the conclusion that this does not work out.
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  9. #24
    Thinking is the Enemy of Creativity. It's Self-Conscious, & Anything Self-Conscious is Lousy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post


    I know what Doc is thinking, which is what I used to think before.
    If you combine the worlds issues and the worlds welfare, then you would(if you care about the rest)also find the conclusion that this does not work out.
    I honestly don't understand what you mean. What isn't working out?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post




    I'm talking about the evolution of a country here, not the whole world. You sound very patriotic to me, any chance you are?
    In this entire thread you didn't single out a single country. You proposed the idea to everyone and their own respective country and I'm supposed to presume that you are only talking about a single country? What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    What I'm trying to say about the hard workers thing is pretty simple; back in the days, when politicians were there as newbies, they didn't earn even close to what they earn this day. I honestly think some jobs are overpaid compared to others, since the physical and mental input of one might be harder than the one who is not putting in so much efforts, yet gets paid more. Same goes for the risk factor and what not.
    Ahh, I don't know about you but a lot of politicians have small incomes. Sure the one's you see on TV might live a rather extravagant life, but a lot live within their means. Hell even the rich ones are rich because of their prior businesses and private investments and not because of taxpayers money. You really giving them enough credit here. And again just because someone does menial labour does not mean they should get higher pay. You are in no position to evaluate the value of anyones specific skillset. You're talking out of your ass here until you start showing some specifics and statistics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    That is my whole point here. You're contributing to a country which is working amongst the others to improve the global system. You're country is a bad example at the moment, since it is actually doing fine, but look at the more western ones, like the UK or the USA. They are slowly bashing on the civil rights.


    And not contributing towards the country proves what? Who does it help? You label every little thing we do as contributing to the country but you providing alternatives. By definition taking action against the oppression of civil rights is contributing towards your country. You have to state purpose for your argument. Do you want everyone to become an anarchist? Do you want government to be removed? Do you want us to just be vocal with what we want (because a lot of people are already vocal especially in the UK and US)? Are you against globalization (because I studied for 2 years specifically on globalization and global economics, and trust me, you don't want to go down that road with me). Your point isn't very specific right now. If you want a debate of some sort you have to make a statement. Right now there isn't much of a statement as there is ad lib.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    I can't believe you just said that. Are you really going to deny Syria, Afghanistan, Brasil, Egypt and some of the other middle-eastern countries?
    You cannot say that the worlds way of going is fine now, because it was all started by a rip-off since the beginning anyway. There was no honest country distribution, there was a man who robbed it and then gave it over to his sons, who had enough power to find more land(UK taking over Australia for example). They made it look less bad, but we should not forget that they made your ancestors work their asses off if they would like to survive. You can ignore that fact, or you can find the decency and fight for them, even if it is history.


    Ok, sorry the middle-east is in bad shape. But that was their fault, and perhaps you should be directing this thread towards them. Last time I checked the Middle-East doesn't represent the world anymore than Australia, or the UK does. For many people the world is fine, for many others it is not. What can you or I do about that?

    You aren't seriously play the history card are you? You aren't proving anything but the fact that you're clutching at straws. Country distribution? Really? Sorry this isn't the 16/17/18th century anymore. Would you like us to stop everything and develop a time travel machine so we can hand out countries fairly? I'm not sure what you're getting at with those kinds of statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Let me give you an example:
    Afghanistan had received a tonload of supplies from America to beat the Russians back in the day, now tell me, who paid for those supplies?
    The american government, or the citizens? I'm pretty sure all the money came from the citizens, and I am also pretty sure that they would of rather had a new park on the block instead of giving out guns who later became their enemies. They also gave out guns to Syria recently, where do you think that money came from?


    There's this little organisation called the UN. Their goal is to maintain cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress, human rights, civil rights, civil liberties, political freedoms and democracy. Everyone in the UN has obligation to take certain action. And if some little town has to forgo a park, so other people can strive towards peace, then the world ain't so bad after all. I also don't get the hypocrisy in your argument. One paragraph you're saying the world is bad because of the state of the middle east, then later you label foreign aid as a bad thing. So do you want to help make the world better or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    It was ment rhetorical. Ofcourse I'm open minded to everyones opinion, but I honestly think you should be more open minded too. You seem so convinced by the welfare of your own country that you do not care about the others.


    I am open-minded to arguments derived from evidence and not from pseudo-humanism. I am open-minded towards views that have a purpose and target, not views that sit on the fence only to move one way or another just to fit the context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Are you really asking me for proof? I mean honestly, look at China, look at America, look at North-Korea. North-Korea is living proof that they are capable of doing such corrupt things and still hide it.


    China, a formerly central market economy that has undergone intense decentralization and has almost reached a free market economy, all for the benefit of it's people. Or are you talking about the China that gets on TV where kiddies get abused and it gets labeled as the big bad communism bear. America, fair enough, there's corruption there but the people are already up in arms over it, and you still haven't provided a means to fix anything. Nth Korea, ummmm what? They are literally the most isolated country in the world, they're are known to be corrupt to everyone, and what exactly are they hiding? They are living proof of nothing except how not to run a country and no-one follows their lead. Even Russia and China have distance themselves from NK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Don't get me wrong here. Surely the current system does work out, but not for everyone, and deffinately not fairly. I live in a perfectly fine situation, where my parents make a decent amount of money over the average.
    That does not yet mean we should now sit back and watch the rest of the world suffer.
    So do you want us to help develop our and other peoples countries or not? You have your feet in both camps. Either you want our money to help other countries or you don't. Either you want us to help our economies or you don't. The system is there, it works, sometimes it stumbles, but it never collapses, and guess what, there is no other system.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post


    In this entire thread you didn't single out a single country. You proposed the idea to everyone and their own respective country and I'm supposed to presume that you are only talking about a single country? What?



    Ahh, I don't know about you but a lot of politicians have small incomes. Sure the one's you see on TV might live a rather extravagant life, but a lot live within their means. Hell even the rich ones are rich because of their prior businesses and private investments and not because of taxpayers money. You really giving them enough credit here. And again just because someone does menial labour does not mean they should get higher pay. You are in no position to evaluate the value of anyones specific skillset. You're talking out of your ass here until you start showing some specifics and statistics.




    And not contributing towards the country proves what? Who does it help? You label every little thing we do as contributing to the country but you providing alternatives. By definition taking action against the oppression of civil rights is contributing towards your country. You have to state purpose for your argument. Do you want everyone to become an anarchist? Do you want government to be removed? Do you want us to just be vocal with what we want (because a lot of people are already vocal especially in the UK and US)? Are you against globalization (because I studied for 2 years specifically on globalization and global economics, and trust me, you don't want to go down that road with me). Your point isn't very specific right now. If you want a debate of some sort you have to make a statement. Right now there isn't much of a statement as there is ad lib.



    Ok, sorry the middle-east is in bad shape. But that was their fault, and perhaps you should be directing this thread towards them. Last time I checked the Middle-East doesn't represent the world anymore than Australia, or the UK does. For many people the world is fine, for many others it is not. What can you or I do about that?

    You aren't seriously play the history card are you? You aren't proving anything but the fact that you're clutching at straws. Country distribution? Really? Sorry this isn't the 16/17/18th century anymore. Would you like us to stop everything and develop a time travel machine so we can hand out countries fairly? I'm not sure what you're getting at with those kinds of statements.



    There's this little organisation called the UN. Their goal is to maintain cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress, human rights, civil rights, civil liberties, political freedoms and democracy. Everyone in the UN has obligation to take certain action. And if some little town has to forgo a park, so other people can strive towards peace, then the world ain't so bad after all. I also don't get the hypocrisy in your argument. One paragraph you're saying the world is bad because of the state of the middle east, then later you label foreign aid as a bad thing. So do you want to help make the world better or not?



    I am open-minded to arguments derived from evidence and not from pseudo-humanism. I am open-minded towards views that have a purpose and target, not views that sit on the fence only to move one way or another just to fit the context.



    China, a formerly central market economy that has undergone intense decentralization and has almost reached a free market economy, all for the benefit of it's people. Or are you talking about the China that gets on TV where kiddies get abused and it gets labeled as the big bad communism bear. America, fair enough, there's corruption there but the people are already up in arms over it, and you still haven't provided a means to fix anything. Nth Korea, ummmm what? They are literally the most isolated country in the world, they're are known to be corrupt to everyone, and what exactly are they hiding? They are living proof of nothing except how not to run a country and no-one follows their lead. Even Russia and China have distance themselves from NK.



    So do you want us to help develop our and other peoples countries or not? You have your feet in both camps. Either you want our money to help other countries or you don't. Either you want us to help our economies or you don't. The system is there, it works, sometimes it stumbles, but it never collapses, and guess what, there is no other system.
    You sir, are a genius

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