Aisha, controversy vs. what actually happened.

[Empire]

Let's talk about Aisha.

So Aisha is Muhammad's youngest wife.
(For those who don't know Muhammad had multiple wives at the same time.)

We know about her from the Sahih Bukhari . A trusted source of information in the Islamic religion.

*ahem*

Aisha was Muhammad's foster niece.
================================================== ===================
Aisha was married at 6, consumated(had sex with) at 9.

 

https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#005.058.236
https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#007.062.064
https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#007.062.065
https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#007.062.163

(I quoted bukhari here. I can also quote Sahih Muslim, Al Nasa'i, Ibn Majah and Abu Dawud)

While I think this is of course pedophillia, I will also note that the text I will link farther below will prove that Muhammad clearly had a thing for virgins and for this particular girl. Many passages refer to his semen and his sexualization of his wives, Aisha in particular.

================================================== ===================
The reason for the marriage was seemingly completely made up.

 

https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/058-sbt.php#005.058.235

It seems incredibly flimsy. All Muhammad had to do was see his loli wife and then go "I had a dream about you" and because he's the prophet people believe him.

I mean this is the guy who already has several wives. Boredom comes to mind and has been documented throughout history that people with a lot of status/wealth often seek more of it.
==========================================
Aisha was basically a cumbucket for Muhammad:

 

https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/002-smt.php#002.0572
https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#001.006.298
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/14/74

This is almost as nasty as it is ironic. Muslims practically deify Muhammad as some sort of saint, the paragon of virtue. But here he is described as cumming all over his loli wife and sucking her tongue during a fast.


========================================
Muhammed referencing virgins+fondling

 

https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#003.038.504
https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#007.062.016
https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religiou...hp#007.062.017

At this point it's not really surprising, but it is rather funny.
There is this one story where this good man is talking to Muhammad about his shit. Muhammad ask "why don't you have a young virgin wife?" and the guy responds with "I married a matron so I could take care of my family" and Muhammad keeps pestering the dude about it. Like really man? You got a fetish that needs to be resolved lol.


Oh and Robin: any stupid copy-pasta argument you are going to post on Aisha's age will be refuted here:

[Gaydow]

Dis b pretty weird

[Snake]

It's one of the reasons islamic religion is considerably medieval and definitely untrustable.
There are no valid arguments against this case. Muhammed indeed did marry her because she was spotted in his dream, and he indeed did marry her at the age of 6 and consummated her at 9.

The only argument they have is.. 'back in the days it was normal to marry girls are that age'.
First wife was 15 years older, second wife is two if not three times that younger.. welp.

[robinvanpersie]

Many Muslims do not believe the Hadith collection by Bukhari is reliable. But for those who do here you go:



Prophet Muhammad pbuh had only one wife until the age of 50. His later marriages were not down to desire. His pbuh later marriages were for the following reasons:

The women were widows or divorced and they needed help and support with their children. In Islam when you marry, you make a promise to God to protect and provide for your wife and children.

To build ties with people as was the case with Aisha. He pbuh was married to Aisha for 9 years and they had no children, contraception was not around in those days.



In the UK I can legally marry a girl who is 16, in the US that is considered paedophelia. Also paedophilies don't marry children and get the permission of the father of the girl for marriage.


Just putting it out there for those who want to understand, not for close minded bigots.

[Empire]

Many Muslims do not believe the Hadith collection by Bukhari is reliable.

That's irrelevant. I can quote from the other Hadiths with the same content. That's also multiple witnesses/collaboration.

His later marriages were not down to desire.

>Sees child
>"I had a dream about you"
>Marries child.
>Has sexual acts with child.

That sounds like desire to me. Maybe you define desire in a different context than us, but desire is "to want".

To build ties with people as was the case with Aisha. He pbuh was married to Aisha for 9 years and they had no children, contraception was not around in those days.

Yet he had sex with her. That is undeniable. The fact that she didn't have a child is irrelevant.

In the UK I can legally marry a girl who is 16, in the US that is considered paedophelia. Also paedophilies don't marry children and get the permission of the father of the girl for marriage.

Yes, but it is illegal for a 40-50 year old man to marry a 9 year old girl.

And permission is hardly worth mentioning, it only shows that Aisha's father was either pressured or a bad parent.

[Jazk]

It's one of the reasons islamic religion is considerably medieval and definitely untrustable.
There are no valid arguments against this case. Muhammed indeed did marry her because she was spotted in his dream, and he indeed did marry her at the age of 6 and consummated her at 9.

The only argument they have is.. 'back in the days it was normal to marry girls are that age'.
First wife was 15 years older, second wife is two if not three times that younger.. welp.

I might sound too post-modernist but... what can we call medieval and untrustable?

I mean, from the little info I could see about you, you were born in the Western Hemisphere, therefore, you were raised by our own culture and reality (We put in front human rights, democracy, to name a few). Things change considerably in the Middle East, and even more, on the southeast (exception Australia and NZ). Honor in Japan is considered a gold value, and most of Chinese people do follow Taoism. (most of the cases)

Middle east has its own social construction, thereby, you can't analyze their acts through your occidental thinking or values.

OT: I do consider that Muhammed has commited pedophile, but the way, I find fascinating the way the power is distributed in the Middle East.

[Empire]

Middle east has its own social construction, thereby, you can't analyze their acts through your occidental thinking or values.

Thing is, I can when it comes to immoral acts.

Clearly it had repercussions and clearly Muhammad was wrong for lusting after a child.


But for cultural things that are more preference, fine, I get that.

[Jazk]

Thing is, I can when it comes to immoral acts.

Clearly it had repercussions and clearly Muhammad was wrong for lusting after a child.


But for cultural things that are more preference, fine, I get that.

Oh yeah my bad. Indeed, you CAN analyze them, but you may not judge them (atleast not internationally).

To clear it up, the ICC (International Crime Court) has been running for over 22 years, and has only judged 2 persons (both from Africa). Anyways, they are free since the African countries had rejected the extradition. Muhammed might be putted in the worst label of honor, but that doesn't affect him much. He still has the power and meanwhile he lives in Middle East, he will not be judged.

[robinvanpersie]

Marrying girls at a young age was not a Middle Eastern thing, it was common around the world. King Richard II of England married a 7 year old in 1400AD. King Henry VIII of England married a 6 year old in 1500AD. Were they paedophiles? Of course not.

Only 135 years ago in 1880, the minimum age for marriage was 7 in the US in the state of Delaware, and 10 in California. And you want to talk about something that happened in a society that is 1400 years old.

The most interesting point is that the people who hated the prophet pbuh the most and wanted to ruin his reputation and wanted him dead, did not think of this as a flaw.

Also I am making these points on the assumption that the hadith is true. The Bukhari Hadiths were compiled in the 9th century, nearly 300 years after the life of the prophet pbuh.

[Empire]

Marrying girls at a young age was not a Middle Eastern thing, it was common around the world.

Appeal to tradition fallacy.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

[Example]
Slavery is bad today
Slavery was not viewed as bad 200 years ago
Therefore slavery back then wasn't bad.


Or in your example:

Famous people did it or it was a recent-ish change:

King Richard II of England married a 7 year old in 1400AD. King Henry VIII of England married a 6 year old in 1500AD.
Only 135 years ago in 1880, the minimum age for marriage was 7 in the US in the state of Delaware, and 10 in California. And you want to talk about something that happened in a society that is 1400 years old.

Therefore we shouldn't judge people for doing such a thing.

\Were they paedophiles? Of course not. \

Uhm. Yes they were.

Just because it was ok at the time, does not mean the definition of pedophilia changes.




Anything more you'd like to try? I've already shot down what, 3 different arguments you had and can't even come back from?

[balkanbird]

But was Mohammad wrong for lusting after Aisha? I think the wrongness of lusting after a child is relative to how society treats that child. Often the main argument I see for why pedophilia is wrong is because children don't have an adequate understanding of the repercussion of sexual acts, i.e pregnancy, stis, etc. But is this because they're incapable of understanding, or is it simply because they aren't taught until later in their life? I don't know about you, but I didn't start any formal education on sex until I got into hs. I think this is a problem with how we treat children in society rather than inherent wrongness of pedophiliac desires. Especially in the U.S., children + sex is a big no no for most parents, and being a "democratic" society, this becomes reflected in our education system. With that said, I couldn't imagine Aisha had much of any education on sex, but how much education on sex did adults have?

[Empire]

But was Mohammad wrong for lusting after Aisha?

Short answer: Yes.

I think the wrongness of lusting after a child is relative to

Oh dear Beelzebub,you are trying to justify pedophilla.


We shall find out.

I see for why pedophilia is wrong is because children don't have an adequate understanding of the repercussion of sexual acts, i.e pregnancy, stis, etc.

Actually the reasons are simple


1. Safety, both medically and mentally.
(We are talking STD's, Infection, physical trauma, PTSD, and a whole slew of mental disorders really)
(Not to mention the bajillion medical risks for a 13 year old pregnancy.)

2. Manipulation. Children recognize adults as authoritarian figures, so it is very easy for adults to manipulate them when abused.

3. Abuse. Unfortunately if the man wants to have sex and the child refuses, it's often met with violence or rape. Unlike adult relationships, where the party can at least "fight back" or escape, pedophilia has no such options if things go sour.

But is this because they're incapable of understanding, or is it simply because they aren't taught until later in their life?

Incapable of understanding. Psychological studies show that even with education, children cannot grasp the concept and it's effects fully.

I think this is a problem with how we treat children in society rather than inherent wrongness of pedophiliac desires.

That's probably because you're a goddamn pedophile.
(There's the reason!)

Especially in the U.S., children + sex is a big no no for most parents, and being a "democratic" society, this becomes reflected in our education system.

Actually children + sex is a VERY big deal, as pedophiles are treated worse in prison than rapist, murderers, and serial killers.

Notice the part where they are in prison, as in IT"S ILLEGAL?

You are also equating the sex of a teenager of 15-16 with another teenager of similar age with a man who was 40+ years old lusting after a 9 year old.

With that said, I couldn't imagine Aisha had much of any education on sex, but how much education on sex did adults have?

Let me get this straight. Because adults didn't have sex ed, they should be able to have sex with children?

Are you really going to make that argument?

[balkanbird]

Oh dear Beelzebub,you are trying to justify pedophilla.

I’m not trying to justify anything. I am simply asking a question about whether or not Mohammad was wrong to engage in those acts at that time.

[SIZE=5] 1. Safety, both medically and mentally.
(We are talking STD's, Infection, physical trauma, PTSD, and a whole slew of mental disorders really)
(Not to mention the bajillion medical risks for a 13 year old pregnancy.)
2. Manipulation. Children recognize adults as authoritarian figures, so it is very easy for adults to manipulate them when abused.
3. Abuse. Unfortunately if the man wants to have sex and the child refuses, it's often met with violence or rape. Unlike adult relationships, where the party can at least "fight back" or escape, pedophilia has no such options if things go sour.

1, 3. Is there any evidence that all pedophilic acts result in this all the time? Being a pedophile doesn’t imply forced anything. Children can instigate sexual acts and they can potentially fight back (screaming, scratching, biting, discharge of a weapon). Both children and adults alike can be forced into a dangerous situation. This is on the individual perpetrating the act, not the desire.
2. Children only recognize adults as authoritative because they’re always in a position to be authoritative in our society. When do children have this same opportunity? Positions of royalty come to mind.

Incapable of understanding. Psychological studies show that even with education, children cannot grasp the concept and it's effects fully.

Source?

Actually children + sex is a VERY big deal, as pedophiles are treated worse in prison than rapist, murderers, and serial killers.

Notice the part where they are in prison, as in IT"S ILLEGAL?

I never said it wasn’t a big deal. In fact, I said “a big no no for most parents…”. Pedophiles being treated worse in prison systems is only a reflection of how our society views these individuals. Illegal =/= wrong. Calm down.

You are also equating the sex of a teenager of 15-16 with another teenager of similar age…

I am?

Let me get this straight. Because adults didn't have sex ed, they should be able to have sex with children?

No. Because neither children nor adults had sex ed back then, you can’t justify those sexual acts to be wrong. If my premise of sexual education is sound, of course.

Are you really going to make that argument?

I am only making the argument because I think the premise is sound. Obviously, if it isn’t then my argument fails.

Just to be clear, if it wasn't already, I do believe pedophilia is wrong in our current society. I am not a pedophile as I understand the term, but a hebephile.

[Hunter Jr.]

I am simply asking a question about whether or not Mohammad was wrong to engage in those acts at that time.

At that time doesn't matter. That's like saying I could murder somebody in the 1900's and it would be "less violent" than in the 2000's. What happened, happened.

Pedophiles being treated worse in prison systems is only a reflection of how our society views these individuals.

Sooo, we should let the men that raped children have some movie time is what you're saying? Of course they'd be treated differently. You're trying to argue that if I robbed someone then I should be treated like a pedophile (or vice versa)

Children can instigate sexual acts

I am?

The ones who instigate sexual acts either are too young to understand what they are doing or they are old enough to be able to consent to what they are doing, it is just not legal. Pedophilia is 1-11 years old, then advances to hebephilia, and then ephebophilia.

There's a difference.

[balkanbird]

At that time doesn't matter. That's like saying I could murder somebody in the 1900's and it would be "less violent" than in the 2000's. What happened, happened.

No, because murder is always wrong regardless of time or circumstance. However, the same can’t be said of pedophilia, at least from my premise. We're not talking about the level of violence in such acts, but the wrongness of them.

Sooo, we should let the men that raped children have some movie time is what you're saying? Of course they'd be treated differently. You're trying to argue that if I robbed someone then I should be treated like a pedophile (or vice versa)

No. An individual can be incarcerated for pedophilic crimes without actually engaging in pedophilic acts, i.e. owning anything considered to be child pornography, this is not limited to actual depictions of children. Forceful rape of any individual, regardless of age, should be met with lethal injection in most cases.

The ones who instigate sexual acts either are too young to understand what they are doing or they are old enough to be able to consent to what they are doing, it is just not legal. Pedophilia is 1-11 years old, then advances to hebephilia, and then ephebophilia.

There's a difference.

I think it’s a pretty big leap to suggest that children instigating sexual acts don’t understand what they’re doing. Can you prove this?
The other issue here is that pedophilia can be used to refer to all of those terms even in psychological contexts and especially in everyday speech.