A Discussion About Abortion

[Bernard]

Abortion is a very controversial topic (or at least in America based on my experience). Now, I live in super liberal Massachusetts and I'm honestly conflicted between both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. So I decided to dig deeper into and get to the reasoning.

Explaining Roe v. Wade
A lot of people have heard of the case of Roe v. Wade, essentially the US Supreme court "ruled that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides a fundamental "right to privacy" that protects a pregnant woman's liberty to choose whether or not to have an abortion. However, it ruled that this right is not absolute, and must be balanced against the government's interests in protecting women's health and protecting prenatal life." (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade)

The one thing I don't understand is how one's right to privacy has to do with abortions. Like I guess it's that the government has no right to impede on your private life (in this case, a woman's sexual life). That's how I interpret what the court ruled. The Court "first ruled that privacy was protected by the Constitution in Griswold v. Connecticut". (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourte...s_Constitution). Okay so now from my understanding, Roe v. Wade uses precedent to rule that abortions are protected by a right to privacy. This ruling was essentially upheld once again in Planned Parenthood v. Casey.

Pro-Life Argument
However, the pro-life side may say that abortion is murder and that the government should step in to do something about it. One's right to privacy obviously doesn't give you the right to murder. Some may say that the fetus has a right to live. Others may say that a fetus is not a person that's protected by the U.S. Constitution. Section 1 of the 14th Amendment in the US Constitution states that "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Key phrases here are "nor shall any state deprive any person of life" and "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".

Conclusion
The US Supreme Court "found that there was no indication that the Constitution's uses of the word "person" were meant to include fetuses, and so it rejected Texas's argument that a fetus should be considered a "person" with a legal and constitutional right to life." (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade)

So I guess the question is when does life start? When does a fetus become a person? I've seen some arguments about when abortions should be allowed or not. The most recent point I saw was a youtube comment that basically said that the brain develops at at 6 weeks, and hey, we take people off life support if they're brain dead and that's seen as okay so. To verify this "Just four weeks after conception, the neural tube along your baby's back is closing. The baby's brain and spinal cord will develop from the neural tube. The heart and other organs also are starting to form." (Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...e/art-20045302) So I guess the argument is once a baby has a working brain, don't abort it.

However, upon further research, I learned that just because a baby has some form of a brain, doesn't mean it's actually working. "Even though the fetus is now developing areas that will become specific sections of the brain, not until the end of week 5 and into week 6 (usually around forty to forty-three days) does the first electrical brain activity begin to occur. This activity, however, is not coherent activity of the kind that underlies human consciousness, or even the coherent activity seen in a shrimp's nervous system. Just as neural activity is present in clinically brain-dead patients, early neural activity consists of unorganized neuron firing of a primitive kind." "The fact that it is clear that a human brain isn't viable until week 23, and only then with the aid of modern medical support"(Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/19/b...cal-brain.html)
TL;DR: THE BABY IS STILL BASICALLY BRAINDEAD UNTIL 23 WEEKS. Basically nearing the end of a woman's 2nd trimester.

Lastly, I must stress that after a brain goes brain dead, the person is essentially dead. However, a fetus's brain is in development. It will in the future work, which makes it different from someone who is brain dead.

SO: When should a fetus count as a person and be protected the US Constitution? What are your thoughts on abortion?

[Extrapolated]

Personally I think people should have the choice to have an abortion or not, there really isn't a reason not to let them. If a woman doesn't want to care for her baby why let that baby suffer in foster care or in a home with a family that does not want them? It doesn't really matter if it is a person or not, it is in the womb and therefore not yet born. I really wouldn't consider a fetus a person as it doesn't have any consciousness anyways.

[Aborted]

Anti abortion types will protect cashews with gills, but once a baby is born they will quicker throw the baby in a ditch than help the mother with healthcare.

[Gill Bates]

The fact that anyone would think they have a say about what someone else wants to do with their body is, and will always be, weird as fuck to me.
Makes no sense????????

I mean if people are wiling to pay for that future kid's expenses for life, then go for it. Otherwise, it will never make sense. Somebody bring religion into this and start some arguments pls

[[MPGH]Jov]

I think in the case of rape/forceful arangements or in the case that the mom would not be able to actually give the birth in her current condition abortion should be absolutely legal and on the table, however i see how the "hearbeat clause" works, we dont know what kind of person that baby will turn out to be, he could even be the next president. Although i dont think babies at 6 weeks of age should be considered humans as tbh they just a sack of cells, but further into the pregnancy when the baby actually starts to develop i think they should have a chance at life. Personally i dont care ppl can do whatever they want to their bodies and as long as the baby aint sentient it is technically just a bunch of cells. however i think babies past the 4 month mark should only be aborted in like worse case scenarios as outlined before or if the parents really really cannot go through the delivery. Worst case, have the baby and put him up for adoption.

[Ferris Bueller]

First of all I would like to point out that there have been many many posts about abortion in General lately and while I understand why(given the current events) and I am happy to see meaningful discussion on here, the Debate Fort is open for business and I would also like to see you guys take the debate there!!!

The one thing I don't understand is how one's right to privacy has to do with abortions.

This is the exact wording from the supreme court ruling itself :

State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. Though the State cannot override that right, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman's health and the potentiality of human life, each of which interests grows and reaches a "compelling" point at various stages of the woman's approach to term.

Of course, most if not all pro-choice activists see roe v wade as being inadequate and are afraid of it being overturned. It is simply not a strong enough support of a woman's right to have an abortion.

SO: When should a fetus count as a person and be protected the US Constitution? What are your thoughts on abortion?

I personally believe that the third trimester should be the cutoff for abortions, with the only abortions being allowed are cases where the kid's birth being detrimental to the woman's life, or its own life. Before that, abortions are fair game. I do understand the pro-choice argument of protecting human life and I completely sympathize with it. However, all science and most physicians agree that a fetus is simply not a human being.

[[MPGH]Dave84311]

MY BODY MY CHOICE

anything other than that can fuck off, idc how u rationalize it

[Bernard]

Personally I think people should have the choice to have an abortion or not, there really isn't a reason not to let them. If a woman doesn't want to care for her baby why let that baby suffer in foster care or in a home with a family that does not want them?I really wouldn't consider a fetus a person as it doesn't have any consciousness anyways.

The argument is that a baby has a right to life even if that life may be shitty. And the baby does develop a consciousness while it's still in the womb. The baby doesn't develop consciousness after leaving the womb.

Anti abortion types will protect cashews with gills, but once a baby is born they will quicker throw the baby in a ditch than help the mother with healthcare.

I try to separate the people who spout shit from the arguments being made. Context matters, yes. But I guess the question is not quality of life but rather life itself.

Somebody bring religion into this and start some arguments pls

EvErY lIfE iS a GiFt FrOm GoD.

[Hector]

When you see a abortion post

ALABAMA 10000

[Dab]

A viable fetus in the US is defined as being capable of surviving outside of the womb. At around 22-23 weeks the fetus' viability will increase, and at 24 weeks it 40-70% likely to survive outside the womb. Whether a fetus is considered a person or not seems irrelevant to me, if there is a non-viable fetus it's a human rights violation to force the women to conceive the child, especially if they are underage, medically ill, raped, or committed incest.

According to a Human Rights committee held by the UN, abortions are a human right

States parties must provide safe, legal and
effective access to abortion where the life and health of the pregnant woman or girl is at
risk, and where carrying a pregnancy to term would cause the pregnant woman or girl
substantial pain or suffering, most notably where the pregnancy is the result of rape or
incest or is not viable. [8] In addition, States parties may not regulate pregnancy or abortion
in all other cases in a manner that runs contrary to their duty to ensure that women and girls
do not have to undertake unsafe abortions, and they should revise their abortion laws
accordingly.

https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBo...PR_C_GC_36.pdf

Therefor access to abortion and prevention of maternal mortality are covered by UDHR, the US is in violation of Articles 1, 2 and 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

https://www.un.org/en/udhrbook/pdf/u...let_en_web.pdf


Also, yes international law applies to the United States, although we rarely follow it and only use the law as an excuse to invade countries we want rss from.

US Constitution Article 6, Section 2:

https://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A6.html

[Janitor]

Abortion is haram.
/thread

[BGkillerBG]

Abortion is normal thing in some countries but it's not about the country but depends all on you as a human

[Danny]

*Insert comment that masturbating is essentially killing off potential life*

Pro-abortion, this shits just gonna lead to poverty-ridden areas ending up with less money and potentially more babies being thrown out

It's incredibly irresponsible to sum up choices due to religion which is just built up for hope.

[Levi]

This is my opinion and the rules in my religion:
You can only do abortion for the following reasons:
- where the life and health of the pregnant woman or girl is at
risk.
- Rape/violence
- Knowing up front the baby will not make it.
------------------------------------------------------------
But in the end, it's the woman body if she is ready to take the consequences fine.
But if you fuck around like a lil hoe and don't use protection/pills etc well it's your own fault. Take the responsibility

[niggo]

What are your thoughts on abortion?

im definitely pro aborting but you shouldnt be able to just go into the clinic and have the baby aborted

there should still be some kind of measure in place to help those women and guide them through the process
cause ive heard of enough women who had problems and doubts after the kid has been aborted


also i think that you shouldnt be able to abort the kid after a certain point in time (once it would be able to survive on its own)
not counting disabled ones though as those are different

but in general aborting, especially for rape victims (and incest victims; looking at you alabama) should be readily avaiable