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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eternity View Post
    I just think the term "basic rights" is being passed around like a hooker on crack at at a mandingo party.
    Not really. Although there is always people trying to demand more than it should be, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says that health care is a human right, if you don't agree with that it's another thing, but you are make an affirmation that it's not, while it actually is.

    Article 25.
    (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health [...] and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
    Source

    Human rights are not universal
    You are not completely wrong, the difference in ethics and principles can vary a lot depending on cultural factors, but that is why we have an organization called UNITED Nations, the intention is exactly to sort those kinds of problems and differences, among other things.

    Anyway, if your point is that it shouldn't be free, i don't know where you got the idea that it's free to begin with. Even if you have "free" health care in your country people are still paying for it through taxes, and honestly those free health care services are usually pretty shit or have extremely long waiting time. Instead of bitching about it you should try and suggest a way to improve its current situation, don't you think so?

    Btw I ask you to not start a discussion about taxes, it will become a mess like always and this is not the main topic.

  2. #17
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    I don't follow murican politics but I imagine it'd just be ran like any other national healthcare, a portion of the countries taxes will cover the healthcare so its like paying for health insurance just it comes out pretax from your pay.

    And if you don't earn anything you'd still be covered (students, unemployed, homeless etc)

    might be different to that thou

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  3. #18
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    It's not a right, it's a necessity.


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  4. #19
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    I think the misconception is that people feel that they're entitled to health care. No one is concerned about health care until they experience life without it and some situations really are just out of your control. The issue with the US is that there is a lot of money going to places that should be going into more productive areas within our society. Whatever, no govt is perfect.

  5. #20
    Eternity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    It's not a right, it's a necessity.
    I don't think that it shouldn't be given but it shouldn't fall under a RIGHT. It's not a human right.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eternity View Post


    I don't think that it shouldn't be given but it shouldn't fall under a RIGHT. It's not a human right.
    In this day and age, everyone should be given access to medical care. That *should* also include dental and eye care. There should never be disparity in terms of health based on income. That's a draconian view on the world.


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  7. #22
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    You can have health, but not necessarily health care. You can have health care, but not necessarily access to health.
    There are so many contributors that dictate how your health functions such the social determinants of health.
    It depends on what your definition of health is, or where you are located, and how society perceives it as. Yes, it is not universal in many parts of the world.
    However, in areas that have access to universal healthcare, there are statistics that back up better overall health performance as opposed to countries who do not provide coverage to access health services. You can access such data on the WHO, or research scholarly articles to prove such.
    For example, WHO defines health as "a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
    Though it is broad & assuming you meet the requirements of the definition, then you can add "healthy" to your checklist. (supposedly, but this can be challenged)

    As previously stated, access to medically necessary services should be universal regardless of the ability to pay.
    Whether or not access to health should be a basic human right is subjective, but your income should not be a barrier, or dictate your health.
    Sure you can say that society influences your decision-making process relative to topics like healthcare, because that's systems thinking.
    The problem with systems thinking is that we constantly blame "the system" for symptoms of the problem that occur and fail to fix it.
    After-all, changing the system does take a lot of time, especially when we constantly think about a "no-blame culture". Changes also take long to become effect is because not everyone agrees with certain changes in the system.

    You can say that this would be related to the social determinants of health. Here are some of them that I can remember at the top of my head:
    - Income & social status
    - Employment and working conditions
    - Education and literacy
    - Experiences in childhood
    - Physical environment
    - Social support
    - Healthy behaviours
    - Access to health services
    - Biology and genetic endowment (genetics)
    - Gender (how one identifies themselves as as opposed to sex which is biological)
    - Culture
    - Race

    It's true that policy changes impact the overall wellness/health performance of individuals. On the macro level it can affect funding. On the meso level in can affect healthcare providers. On the micro level, it affects your individual health.
    And again... policy changes are systemic/societal.
    Sure you can say that ethics are created by humans, but it isn't the same as law which is required. Yes, it is related to law in some extent because law can be bound by ethics. If we are pulling in ethics for health, then we have to look at the ethical principles of beneficence, nonmaleficence, autonomy, and distributive-justice.

    We can spend all day debating whether or not access to healthcare services is a basic human right, but really everyone should have access to health. If access to health means that access to necessary healthcare services are needed, then it is likewise that it should be a basic right to have. If that means providing coverage, then so be it. This, however, does not mean that you cannot have a public and private system at the same time.
    Also, you are correct about basic human rights being distorted in politics. It really shouldn't be, but unfortunately depends on the ideology of the country.

    Yes my completed degree is in healthcare policy & management.
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  9. #23
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    In my opinion if it is critical to your life like lets say you are stabbed and need an urgent treatment you have that right. But if it is not critical you must pay and that is where your bills go to.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eternity View Post
    Freak out of here with that Buckcrap. Also, just because I say that are not a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT doesn't mean I am for or against them. I just think the term "basic rights" is being passed around like a hooker on crack at at a mandingo party.


    Human rights are not universal nor did they exist since the birth of man (this part can be argued and torn apart imo) . They are man made-and a product of the humanitarian philosophical movement during the renaissance. So yeah, if you see it from this perspective, ethics are a human creation and you don't have to follow them, except of where you are bound to by the law. (pulled from reddit, mostly)


    Title should say not a basic human right.
    However a basic right I can get behind is slop joe rights. You can go to a local both and have your slopy joe sloppied. ; 0.

    Living is not a right, I guess oxygen shouldn't be a right either. We should make people pay for the oxygen they need to breathe because our made up concept of wealth means a lot more. This dyed paper sheets determine who dies and lives.
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  11. #25
    Eternity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingNeko View Post

    Living is not a right, I guess oxygen shouldn't be a right either. We should make people pay for the oxygen they need to breathe because our made up concept of wealth means a lot more. This dyed paper sheets determine who dies and lives.
    Interesting that you say that. I believe people in China are buying canned oxygen right now. : )


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  12. #26
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    I think Healthcare is a basic human right

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eternity View Post


    Interesting that you say that. I believe people in China are buying canned oxygen right now. : )


    - - - Updated - - -

    This is true news lmao, not even being sarcastic.

    It's because they want cleaner air, but China also lacks basic human rights.
    Only Bobo

  14. #28
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    If you have paid any attention to what happens with China's polution and how air becomes shit because of the said polution, then you'd wonder why do they buy canned air canisters, to breathe when they have hard time...

    Healthcare is as basic human right as it should be, maybe with this attitude, you should question why American's have so many fat asses promoting wrong health techniques and how people should go vegan instead of murdering innocent cows/sheeps/etc for their meat, and why the fuck their healthcare is more expensive than any other country in the world.

    Let's take Estonia for example, and my illness / syndromes into the factor, and me not having a job because of the said things; I get pretty much "Free" healthcare, 85€ of it is paid by the government, and I would have to pay 10€ for a simple dentist visit, or eye visit if they ask money.

    And, Estonian's healthcare is pretty much cheaper than compare to America, and possibly few other places.

    There was a video where American went around UK asking how expensive was healthcare in America, and they were shocked.

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nani View Post
    If you have paid any attention to what happens with China's polution and how air becomes shit because of the said polution, then you'd wonder why do they buy canned air canisters, to breathe when they have hard time...

    Healthcare is as basic human right as it should be, maybe with this attitude, you should question why American's have so many fat asses promoting wrong health techniques and how people should go vegan instead of murdering innocent cows/sheeps/etc for their meat, and why the fuck their healthcare is more expensive than any other country in the world.

    Let's take Estonia for example, and my illness / syndromes into the factor, and me not having a job because of the said things; I get pretty much "Free" healthcare, 85€ of it is paid by the government, and I would have to pay 10€ for a simple dentist visit, or eye visit if they ask money.

    And, Estonian's healthcare is pretty much cheaper than compare to America, and possibly few other places.

    There was a video where American went around UK asking how expensive was healthcare in America, and they were shocked.

    After watching "Dark Waters" last night, I honestly feel like the system is like that intentionally. Poison you and fuck you over with a bad diet, you end up stuck in a health care system that cares about the mighty dollar.

    That being said, everyone should watch Dark Waters, apparently 99% of all living creatures have teflon in their blood stream - FUCK DUPONT AND BIG CHEMICAL COMPANIES





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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eternity View Post
    Freak out of here with that Buckcrap. Also, just because I say that are not a BASIC HUMAN RIGHT doesn't mean I am for or against them. I just think the term "basic rights" is being passed around like a hooker on crack at at a mandingo party.


    Human rights are not universal nor did they exist since the birth of man (this part can be argued and torn apart imo) . They are man made-and a product of the humanitarian philosophical movement during the renaissance. So yeah, if you see it from this perspective, ethics are a human creation and you don't have to follow them, except of where you are bound to by the law. (pulled from reddit, mostly)


    Title should say not a basic human right.
    However a basic right I can get behind is slop joe rights. You can go to a local both and have your slopy joe sloppied. ; 0.
    Im guessing you are from the upper or upper middle class. I agree that human rights are bullshit but to say that people don't deserve basic healthcare is also bullshit.

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