C++

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Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post


Brinuz is actually right. Once you've learned one programming language to a sufficient degree, consecutive languages (regardless of what they are) are considerably easier. You build up your "computer logic" in your first language, and that stays with you no matter what language you decide to code in. VB took me quite a while to get the hang of (was my first language) the languages I've learned after that have been thousands of times easier than that first experience was.
Your "computer logic" shouldn't be the same for every language because not every language use the same logic. IE: If you are trying to solve problems in a functional programming ambient by applying procedural ways of thinking then you are wasting a lot of potential and simply coding the wrong way.
Quote Originally Posted by scuarplex View Post
Your "computer logic" shouldn't be the same for every language because not every language use the same logic. IE: If you are trying to solve problems in a functional programming ambient by applying procedural ways of thinking then you are wasting a lot of potential and simply coding the wrong way.
Obviously you are going to encounter fundamental differences between procedural and OO programming, that's a given. Moving from managed to unmanaged code is also a hurdle. However some programming aspects remain constant in a large portion of languages (both managed and unmanaged) so you can't say "learning one language won't help you with another" because that's incorrect unless you really just copied and pasted everything when "learning".
Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post


Obviously you are going to encounter fundamental differences between procedural and OO programming, that's a given. Moving from managed to unmanaged code is also a hurdle. However some programming aspects remain constant in a large portion of languages (both managed and unmanaged) so you can't say "learning one language won't help you with another" because that's incorrect unless you really just copied and pasted everything when "learning".
I think what you're trying to describe (& are totally correct about it) is that it's important to know your Data Structures & Design Patterns (which i'm sure most people on here have never even heard or thought about)
1º I never said every language is OO. At least read yo shit.

2º Like Jason said, your logic will work for more than just programming.
You know that right? You know that when you apply for a programming job(dev) they will test your logic. And not everything about these tests have to do with programming, but your capability to think correctly. As you encounter problems every single day. (I mean every....)

Learning from language to language is just syntax. You can't obviously apply the same logic everywhere. But that's the biggest challenge, training your brain to find different solutions for different problems. When your brain is capable of programming, it won't change that much from Programming language to Programming language.
You will just need to apply different syntax or maybe even logic, but that doesn't mean that you will need to built up your logic again like you did at your first language, of course not.

The most epic solutions for problems won't even require you to know the language. You can pretty much have a decent conversation about a programming logic problem without the need of knowing the language.

Actually when I started to program a few years ago, I started by doing Pseudo-Code and Flow-charts. What was the next step? The easiest.. Write the same thing using C Syntax (Or whatever syntax you could have used). All the logic was on the paper already, so what's the problem?
I got used to always have a pen and a paper with me to train my logic first with paper. Then apply it. (Using charts, mainly when I used to Program with Linked Lists and Pointers)

----

TL;DR: Brain Logic is the most important factor here. Not the only I know. But..
Quote Originally Posted by 'Bruno View Post
1º I never said every language is OO. At least read yo shit.

2º Like Jason said, your logic will work for more than just programming.
You know that right? You know that when you apply for a programming job(dev) they will test your logic. And not everything about these tests have to do with programming, but your capability to think correctly. As you encounter problems every single day. (I mean every....)

Learning from language to language is just syntax. You can't obviously apply the same logic everywhere. But that's the biggest challenge, training your brain to find different solutions for different problems. When your brain is capable of programming, it won't change that much from Programming language to Programming language.
You will just need to apply different syntax or maybe even logic, but that doesn't mean that you will need to built up your logic again like you did at your first language, of course not.

The most epic solutions for problems won't even require you to know the language. You can pretty much have a decent conversation about a programming logic problem without the need of knowing the language.

Actually when I started to program a few years ago, I started by doing Pseudo-Code and Flow-charts. What was the next step? The easiest.. Write the same thing using C Syntax (Or whatever syntax you could have used). All the logic was on the paper already, so what's the problem?
I got used to always have a pen and a paper with me to train my logic first with paper. Then apply it. (Using charts, mainly when I used to Program with Linked Lists and Pointers)

----

TL;DR: Brain Logic is the most important factor here. Not the only I know. But..
Both this nigga and BA speak the truth. My old Computer teacher in yr 9 made us write flow charts for every single basic app. I thought it was boring as fuck and didn't pay attention (and consequently spent a lot of time sitting outside) but it really is one of the best ways to wrap your head around a complex program. Knowing HOW to write code is not the same as BEING ABLE to code. Anyone can type in a bunch of letters and hit the compile button, managing a large amount of variable factors, keeping track of what everything should do and making the logic as robust as possible doesn't require deep knowledge of the specific language, a general well rounded knowledge on programming, and how programs work will see you in good stead (of course, you'll need specialist coder rats to nitpick the actual coding...but that's what we're paid to do ) You can apply your logic to any program.

As you program more and more you begin to think like the computer (well not really, 1s and 0s would get rather boring), but you start thinking more logically about how a computer is going to interpret what you're coding

I can't count the number of times I've rushed into an application being like IK HOW 2 D0 DIZ, then halfway through realize i need to implement more diverse control and spend the next hour overhauling the whole damned thing to do it right the second time, whereas if I'd mindmapped like a wise Brinuz once said and thought about the program in detail before actually coding it, it would have been much simpler.

Oh look at that, I'm rambling again.

To summarize kiddies. FLOW CHART + MIND MAPS. I never do it, but you should!
You know that right? You know that when you apply for a programming job(dev) they will test your logic. And not everything about these tests have to do with programming, but your capability to think correctly. As you encounter problems every single day. (I mean every....)
That in a nutshell is any-software-job-interview.. lot of times they don't even care about if you whiteboard a problem in C++/C#/VB or even pseudo code, but they want to see you think things through & be able to not only grasp the problem (usually there's some gotchas involved you'll miss if you rush right in), but also be articulate enough to explain it to the interviewer after which you can scribble out in the language of your choice (or relevant to the position naturally).

And yes proper design like Jason mentioned is KEY to not having to rewrite your app 6 times, or have to gut it just because you need to add a feature. I've worked with/for people who think taking a week or two up front to do solid design is a 'waste of development time' and then are shocked when they loose 3-9 months in a rewrite that wasn't anticipated... For me the design part is the fun part.. the grunt work of actually coding it.. meh that's easy and some code monkey could do that

From a professional perspective Jason & Brinuz have a good mindset and an good basic understanding of how the software dev business world operates I unfortunately don't see around here too often with all the 'OMG i'M a L33t H4x0r wh0 kn0w5 C++ !' .

Scuarplex DOES make a valid point about learning things the 'right' way per each language, you obviously don't always approach things the same way you do in C++ vs C# vs say Java or (and sometimes you can't - multiple inheritance anyone?) and i've seen all too often inexperienced developers claiming they 'know' a language and then try to shoehorn in practices that really have no place in that particular language.

In the end (also in reference to ' that other' thread) There's a tool for every job - sometimes it's asm, sometimes C++ , PHP, Java or (and yes this is coming from someone who used to be a hardcore C++ only developer) even .NET There's stuff to nitpick and 'hate' about all of them, but they're all proven development languages & tools to get a specific job done.

(talk about rambling.. think I got you beat there Jason haha)
Quote Originally Posted by B1ackAnge1 View Post
(talk about rambling.. think I got you beat there Jason haha)
Fellow rambler, I salute you.

Though it's not rambling when it's good stuff. Me likey. I need to expand my repertoire of languages soon dunno what to do yet, not sure if my brain is up to the headache of C++ yet.
Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post


Fellow rambler, I salute you.

Though it's not rambling when it's good stuff. Me likey. I need to expand my repertoire of languages soon dunno what to do yet, not sure if my brain is up to the headache of C++ yet.
You know.. C#/.Net has paid my bills for the last 6 years - (C++ for longer than that before that) now trying to write Windows Apps with C++ (using MFC or WTL etc) just seems like such a hassle & takes much longer.. (though you dont need to worry about some idiot running your stuff through reflector , changing 1 line of text and claiming it as 'their' work... aggrevating.. Hence if I ever decide to do an update to Winrez, I'll probably just stick with C++ & MFC). But if you go the time etc go for it since you'll never know when it comes in handy
Quote Originally Posted by B1ackAnge1 View Post
You know.. C#/.Net has paid my bills for the last 6 years - (C++ for longer than that before that)
- How old are you ?
Quote Originally Posted by B1ackAnge1 View Post
You know.. C#/.Net has paid my bills for the last 6 years - (C++ for longer than that before that) now trying to write Windows Apps with C++ (using MFC or WTL etc) just seems like such a hassle & takes much longer.. (though you dont need to worry about some idiot running your stuff through reflector , changing 1 line of text and claiming it as 'their' work... aggrevating.. Hence if I ever decide to do an update to Winrez, I'll probably just stick with C++ & MFC). But if you go the time etc go for it since you'll never know when it comes in handy
Yeah, I'm always looking to expand my language knowledge, most of them have a somewhat unique trait that I like, and I just enjoy learning knew languages for some strange reason haha. I'm making myself stop writing every lazy app in VB.NET and changing to C#.NET, just for more C-Syntax. But yeah, I've never been a fan of C++ (I'm sorry Wes ) but I do probably need to learn an unmanaged language sooner rather than later, I'm just too spoonfed by the .NET Framework to bother . I will learn it some day, Alen says to learn Pascal, which I might just do for teh lulz. I found PHP to be my main money earner so far (been coding for like.. 13 months now and only picked PHP up in the last 1-2 months yet it's been more of a payout than the previous 11-12 months of .NET... don't you hate that?)

I can't wait to finally get a steady developing job though, only a few years to go!
Quote Originally Posted by Hassan View Post


- How old are you ?
Probably 16
Quote Originally Posted by Nathan View Post


Probably 16
better turn the numbers around
Quote Originally Posted by Nathan View Post


Probably 16
Hmmm, I'm going to take a wild guess and say... between 22-27

Don't ask me why that range
Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post


Yeah, I'm always looking to expand my language knowledge, most of them have a somewhat unique trait that I like, and I just enjoy learning knew languages for some strange reason haha. I'm making myself stop writing every lazy app in VB.NET and changing to C#.NET, just for more C-Syntax. But yeah, I've never been a fan of C++ (I'm sorry Wes ) but I do probably need to learn an unmanaged language sooner rather than later, I'm just too spoonfed by the .NET Framework to bother . I will learn it some day, Alen says to learn Pascal, which I might just do for teh lulz. I found PHP to be my main money earner so far (been coding for like.. 13 months now and only picked PHP up in the last 1-2 months yet it's been more of a payout than the previous 11-12 months of .NET... don't you hate that?)

I can't wait to finally get a steady developing job though, only a few years to go!
I'd like to add - C++ is impractical for most small tasks. Why several hundred lines of code when .NET allows you to do it in 2?
Quote Originally Posted by T0XIC View Post
s0beit,

He said s0beit
Posts 1630 of 55 · Page 2 of 4

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