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Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


Do you know why extortion is wrong?

I have yet to see an answer to this question I've asked. Don't feel like responding to your post otherwise. Please explain why extortion is wrong redspot.
extortion people repeatedly will eventually ignite some kind of aggressive behavior or maybe raise hate towards a certain group... and divide the community into various groups that one group dislike the other.

I don't know what your trying to do here, but it aint working, these taxes weren't considered as extortion.
#16 ·
Quote Originally Posted by RedSpot View Post
extortion people repeatedly will eventually ignite some kind of aggressive behavior or maybe raise hate towards a certain group... and divide the community into various groups that one group dislike the other.

I don't know what your trying to do here, but it aint working, these taxes weren't considered as extortion.
No, that's what happens from extortion, not exactly why extortion is wrong.



Definition of extortion:
Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection.
----------------------------------------------------

Taking money from a certain group of people(not everyone) for protection, and they can avoid this by converting to a different religion. They get punished if they do not abide by this.




Maybe your government should start taking some of your money just because you are a muslim, then you'd understand why this is wrong.
-Seriously, I can't believe people are this stupid sometimes.
#17 · edited ·
Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


No, that's what happens from extortion, not exactly why extortion is wrong.



Definition of extortion:
Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection.
----------------------------------------------------

Taking money from a certain group of people(not everyone) for protection, and they can avoid this by converting to a different religion. They get punished if they do not abide by this.




Maybe your government should start taking some of your money just because you are a muslim, then you'd understand why this is wrong.
-Seriously, I can't believe people are this stupid sometimes.
Alright, lets start from the beginning;
the tax that we are talking about is called; Al-Jizya

*Who pays Al-Jizya?

-Men only, Adults to be specific.

-Only the people with got good health, and not the sick people or the one with mental illness or handicapped.

-Rich people only, Poor people used to get money each month from something called Bayt al-mal which is a "bank" dedicated for everyone in the Islamic country, small percentage of it dedicated to the non-muslims who need help.

-People who can fight and participate in a real war pay it only, and not those who dedicated their life to worship and live peacefully.

*How much is Al-Jizya?

Thats the part that will shut you up for ever, no offense.
Al-Jizia is only 1 Dinar per Year, while Muslims pay 2,5% of their total annual income each yer aswell, and that 2,5% "tax" called Al-Zaka which only Muslims pay, and if a non-Muslims turn into a muslim he doesn't pay the Jizia anymore but he pay more than that!

2,5% is probably the lowest tax that was ever made.




The non muslims in that time used to pay that tax with a smile on their face because they knew they will get much more in return.

this for example; http://harunyahya.com/en/What-he-sai...al-schmitt-all

and who told you that they don't take money from us in here?
#18 ·
Quote Originally Posted by RedSpot View Post
Alright, lets start from the beginning;
the tax that we are talking about is called; Al-Jizya

*Who pays Al-Jizya?

-Men only, Adults to be specific.

-Only the people with got good health, and not the sick people or the one with mental illness or handicapped.

-Rich people only, Poor people used to get money each month from something called Bayt al-mal which is a "bank" dedicated for everyone in the Islamic country, small percentage of it dedicated to the non-muslims who need help.

-People who can fight and participate in a real war pay it only, and not those who dedicated their life to worship and live peacefully.

*How much is Al-Jizya?

Thats the part that will shut you up for ever, no offense.
Al-Jizia is only 1 Dinar per Year, while Muslims pay 2,5% of their total annual income each yer aswell, and that 2,5% "tax" called Al-Zaka which only Muslims pay, and if a non-Muslims turn into a muslim he doesn't pay the Jizia anymore but he pay more than that!

2,5% is probably the lowest tax that was ever made.




The non muslims in that time used to pay that tax with a smile on their face because they knew they will get much more in return.

this for example; Hungarian President Pal Schmitt: All for the better that we remained under Ottoman rule for 150 years

and who told you that they don't take money from us in here?
Pfft, you think only rich people paid the tax? Oh boy you are so far up your ass with this apologist act its shameful.
Nowhere does it say that btw, nice try!

Jizya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-The actual amount varies depending upon rule, but it was rather expensive.
-If you refused it was imprisonment or enslavement.
-Yeah, slavery again!
-----------------------------

The difference between zakat and jizya:

Zakat is a part of Islamic tradition, such as the tithe in christianity/judaism.
Jizya is an islamic law against non-muslims.

Also Jizya is enforced on conquered cities.
------------------------------------------

Let me put this in words even you can understand

1. Muslim army conquers a city.
2. Muslim army forces a tax on the conquered city.
3. You have an option, pay the tax or convert.
4. The tax goes to help muslims and their armies.
5. The tax does not go for protection, as their conquerers were the ones who ATTACKED them.

:/

Seriously, just think for once redspot. If some country invaded your country, conquered it, and then set up a tax that you have to pay with the option to convert to scientology, wouldn't you think it wrong?


I know how hard it is for Muslims to admit a wrongdoing but this is pretty black and white here.
#19 · edited ·
Yeah imma admit islam dun goofed. I'm not gonna make up an excuse like 99% of the muslims would. I admit: that was bad .
#20 · edited ·
Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


Pfft, you think only rich people paid the tax? Oh boy you are so far up your ass with this apologist act its shameful.
Nowhere does it say that btw, nice try!

Jizya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-The actual amount varies depending upon rule, but it was rather expensive.
-If you refused it was imprisonment or enslavement.
-Yeah, slavery again!
-----------------------------

The difference between zakat and jizya:

Zakat is a part of Islamic tradition, such as the tithe in christianity/judaism.
Jizya is an islamic law against non-muslims.

Also Jizya is enforced on conquered cities.
------------------------------------------

Let me put this in words even you can understand

1. Muslim army conquers a city.
2. Muslim army forces a tax on the conquered city.
3. You have an option, pay the tax or convert.
4. The tax goes to help muslims and their armies.
5. The tax does not go for protection, as their conquerers were the ones who ATTACKED them.

:/

Seriously, just think for once redspot. If some country invaded your country, conquered it, and then set up a tax that you have to pay with the option to convert to scientology, wouldn't you think it wrong?


I know how hard it is for Muslims to admit a wrongdoing but this is pretty black and white here.
Once again the Muslims paid more money than those who paid the Jizya by paying the Zaka, And in addition to that Muslims HAD to fight in the army and serve in it.
on the other side, Tell me why is it bad when Islam conquer a country or part of land just to make it better, Al-Andalus for example, got conquered by the Muslims at the beginning of the 7th century, they ruled it for over 800 years, and the Christians there were allowed to practice their religion freely if they stay with the agreement that they made with the Muslims and pay the Jizya, and that agreement was not to betray the muslims and stab them in the back.
in these 800 years the Muslims turned that region into a heaven on earth.

Muslims also conquered cities without fights, by giving the leaders of those cities 2 options, either to fight and if you lose we take everything or you can live in your city under our rule and you just pay the Jizya and promise not to betray us. and most of the people preferred the second option.

Also this; The Jizya in the Bible !

Book of Genisis : "[49:15] When he sees how good is his resting placeand how pleasant is his land,he will bend his shoulder to the burden and submit to forced labor."

Book of Judges : "[1:28] When Israel became strong, they pressed the Canaanites into forced labor but never drove them out completely."

Book of Ezra : "[4:13] Furthermore, the king should know that if this city is built and its walls are restored, no more taxes, tribute or duty will be paid, and eventually the royal revenues will suffer."[31:8] Assyria will fall by no human sword; a sword, not of mortals, will devour them.They will flee before the sword and their young men will be put to forced labor."

Book of Matthew : "[17:25] “Yes, he does,” he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”

Bet you didn't know that there is that kind of tax in your religion as well but your blind enough to not see it.

let me clear one point out, the Jizya isn't pay or convert to Islam, its if you turn into Islam you will pay more than that, and danger your life by serving in the army.
#21 ·
Quote Originally Posted by RedSpot View Post
Once again the Muslims paid more money than those who paid the Jizya by paying the Zaka, And in addition to that Muslims HAD to fight in the army and serve in it.
on the other side, Tell me why is it bad when Islam conquer a country or part of land just to make it better, Al-Andalus for example, got conquered by the Muslims at the beginning of the 7th century, they ruled it for over 800 years, and the Christians there were allowed to practice their religion freely if they stay with the agreement that they made with the Muslims and pay the Jizya, and that agreement was not to betray the muslims and stab them in the back.
in these 800 years the Muslims turned that region into a heaven on earth.

Muslims also conquered cities without fights, by giving the leaders of those cities 2 options, either to fight and if you lose we take everything or you can live in your city under our rule and you just pay the Jizya and promise not to betray us. and most of the people preferred the second option.

Also this; The Jizya in the Bible !

Book of Genisis : "[49:15] When he sees how good is his resting placeand how pleasant is his land,he will bend his shoulder to the burden and submit to forced labor."

Book of Judges : "[1:28] When Israel became strong, they pressed the Canaanites into forced labor but never drove them out completely."

Book of Ezra : "[4:13] Furthermore, the king should know that if this city is built and its walls are restored, no more taxes, tribute or duty will be paid, and eventually the royal revenues will suffer."[31:8] Assyria will fall by no human sword; a sword, not of mortals, will devour them.They will flee before the sword and their young men will be put to forced labor."

Book of Matthew : "[17:25] “Yes, he does,” he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”

Bet you didn't know that there is that kind of tax in your religion as well but your blind enough to not see it.

let me clear one point out, the Jizya isn't pay or convert to Islam, its if you turn into Islam you will pay more than that, and danger your life by serving in the army.
1. Making the mistake of relevance here. Muslims have to fight in the army that conquers cities is pretty much saying "Islam isn't peaceful".
2. Al-Andalus wasn't so nice a place according to the historians. Certainly not a "heaven on earth" as you so describe it by any means. Especially not for the non-muslims.
Al-Andalus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


3. redspot I can never tell if you are just trolling or incredibly stupid.
-Conquering is bad. For all the bullshit you complain about the US and Israel, to say conquering is ok in any scenario is completely hypocritical.
-You just described conquering by force and said it like it was a peaceful takeover. No, if you arrive at someone's doorstep with an army, that is not a peaceful situation. The joining of states/countries to an empire willingly is a peaceful takeover, not a damn army on the doorstep.


4. Jizya in the bible? You mean tithing? Which goes to the church/synagogue and not the state? And is not inflicted upon other people not of the religion......nor does it have any relevance to the topic.


K I believe that's enough for you, stupid as you are, doubt you'll understand half of it.
---------------------------------

Quote Originally Posted by Wankstaa View Post
jizyah is an annual tax on individuals.
I've already countered what you said, read before posting.
#23 ·
Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


1. Making the mistake of relevance here. Muslims have to fight in the army that conquers cities is pretty much saying "Islam isn't peaceful".
2. Al-Andalus wasn't so nice a place according to the historians. Certainly not a "heaven on earth" as you so describe it by any means. Especially not for the non-muslims.
Al-Andalus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaⓘ


3. redspot I can never tell if you are just trolling or incredibly stupid.
-Conquering is bad. For all the bullshit you complain about the US and Israel, to say conquering is ok in any scenario is completely hypocritical.
-You just described conquering by force and said it like it was a peaceful takeover. No, if you arrive at someone's doorstep with an army, that is not a peaceful situation. The joining of states/countries to an empire willingly is a peaceful takeover, not a damn army on the doorstep.


4. Jizya in the bible? You mean tithing? Which goes to the church/synagogue and not the state? And is not inflicted upon other people not of the religion......nor does it have any relevance to the topic.


K I believe that's enough for you, stupid as you are, doubt you'll understand half of it.
---------------------------------



I've already countered what you said, read before posting.
1- muslims didn't take cities for money they wanted to spread islam ,at that time you couldn't just go to people and say islam is here lets turn to it..

2- the muslims did some huge improvements in it you can't deny that.

3- Do you really think that going at that time to a city and asking them to join islam would basically work ? That proves how "smart" you are ..
We didn't ask for war we gave them 2 options pay or turn to islam.
Now why did we ask them to pay, back then they hated muslims, so no non-muslim was to be trusted to join the army that would have led to betrayal.
So instead of joining the army pay for the equipments ,or turn to islam and join the army.
Now if we are violent why did't muslims steal the non-muslims money and kill them all ?
Because our religion doesn't support killing non-muslims unless they hurt us.

Now before calling people stupid check yourself.
#24 ·
Quote Originally Posted by Free syrian View Post
1- muslims didn't take cities for money they wanted to spread islam ,at that time you couldn't just go to people and say islam is here lets turn to it..

2- the muslims did some huge improvements in it you can't deny that.

3- Do you really think that going at that time to a city and asking them to join islam would basically work ? That proves how "smart" you are ..
We didn't ask for war we gave them 2 options pay or turn to islam.
Now why did we ask them to pay, back then they hated muslims, so no non-muslim was to be trusted to join the army that would have led to betrayal.
So instead of joining the army pay for the equipments ,or turn to islam and join the army.
Now if we are violent why did't muslims steal the non-muslims money and kill them all ?
Because our religion doesn't support killing non-muslims unless they hurt us.

Now before calling people stupid check yourself.
1. I didn't say they conquered cities for money. And yeah, religion could have spread by word-of-mouth, you didn't need an army back then.

2. Not for the non-muslims they didn't.

3. That is the stupidest fucking thing i've ever heard. Showing up to a city/nation with an army and saying "we didn't ask for war". Really? What's that army for then? Oh in case I don't go along with your plan? Oh.....so back to extortion again. Ugh, how do you people not realize this was wrong?
---------------

This is something I'd like to talk about.
"Because our religion doesn't support killing non-muslims unless they hurt us."
^You see, this is false ^

Conquest does not work by defending yourself.
-In no possible way could you say the Islamic conquest was "in defense" or that attacking a nearby village/city/nation was in self-defense.

--------------------------------------------

Maybe before speaking you should get an education and then come back. This topic is probably above your grade level kid.
#25 · edited ·
Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


1. I didn't say they conquered cities for money. And yeah, religion could have spread by word-of-mouth, you didn't need an army back then.

2. Not for the non-muslims they didn't.

3. That is the stupidest fucking thing i've ever heard. Showing up to a city/nation with an army and saying "we didn't ask for war". Really? What's that army for then? Oh in case I don't go along with your plan? Oh.....so back to extortion again. Ugh, how do you people not realize this was wrong?
---------------

This is something I'd like to talk about.
"Because our religion doesn't support killing non-muslims unless they hurt us."
^You see, this is false ^

Conquest does not work by defending yourself.
-In no possible way could you say the Islamic conquest was "in defense" or that attacking a nearby village/city/nation was in self-defense.

--------------------------------------------

Maybe before speaking you should get an education and then come back. This topic is probably above your grade level kid.
1. You know nothing about that time back then people were attached to their tradition none would have even thought to accept islam.


2. Have you seen the islamic architecture there ? Any way they didn't take it to impress none muslims they wanted to spread islam.

3. I didn't mean we didn't ask for war literally i meant we didn't force it upon them ..
It's not extortion they had to pay for muslims protecting them and if you have read my last comment you would have understood why ..

This just shows how ignorant you are.
Ohh and my grade level is definitely higher than yours.
#26 · edited ·
Quote Originally Posted by Free syrian View Post
1. You know nothing about that time back then people were attached to their tradition none would have even thought to accept islam.


2. Have you seen the islamic architecture there ? Any way they didn't take it to impress none muslims they wanted to spread islam.

3. I didn't mean we didn't ask for war literally i meant we didn't force it upon them ..
It's not extortion they had to pay for muslims protecting them and if you have read my last comment you would have understood why ..

This just shows how ignorant you are.
Ohh and my grade level is definitely higher than yours.
1. Other religions spread without war, surprisingly enough.

2. Yes, forceful conversion, how quaint.

3. Yes, you did. Bringing an army to a peaceful city/town/nation is forcing the option of war.


Really? Your grade level is higher than mine?

I highly doubt that.
#27 ·
Quote Originally Posted by Empire View Post


1. Other religions spread without war, surprisingly enough.

2. Yes, forceful conversion, how quaint.

3. Yes, you did. Bringing an army to a peaceful city/town/nation is forcing the option of war.


Really? Your grade level is higher than mine?

I highly doubt that.
The Middle East (the Levantine Arabs especially) had been suffering for years under the harsh and often corrupt rule of the Byzantines. The Muslim Arab armies didn't so much conquer the rest of the Middle East as walk into the people's open arms. The Middle Easterners would often rebel against their Byzantine rulers when they heard the Muslims were coming- something that greatly aided their conquests.

The Byzantines themselves were fighting battles within their own state and among politicians. Nearly every noble and general had his eyes set on the imperial throne and would willingly (and brutally) kill other Byzantines to get it. Today the very term "Byzantine" has come to mean "corrupt".

So as you see most of the countries welcomed Islam ..

Try to search the improvements Muslims did in the Cities and how they improved the medical fields and a lot more.
#28 ·
Quote Originally Posted by Free syrian View Post
The Middle East (the Levantine Arabs especially) had been suffering for years under the harsh and often corrupt rule of the Byzantines. The Muslim Arab armies didn't so much conquer the rest of the Middle East as walk into the people's open arms. The Middle Easterners would often rebel against their Byzantine rulers when they heard the Muslims were coming- something that greatly aided their conquests.

The Byzantines themselves were fighting battles within their own state and among politicians. Nearly every noble and general had his eyes set on the imperial throne and would willingly (and brutally) kill other Byzantines to get it. Today the very term "Byzantine" has come to mean "corrupt".

So as you see most of the countries welcomed Islam ..

Try to search the improvements Muslims did in the Cities and how they improved the medical fields and a lot more.
The East Roman Empire??

Sources are needed for what you are saying.

Muslim rule being more "accepted" than Roman, especially given that muslims needed war to take over anything at that era, seems highly unlikely.
Arab


:/

Also, personal inventions and advancements have nothing to do with islam, don't be retarded.
#29 ·
jizyah is an annual tax on individuals. There is a small amount of money that the rich should pay each according to his fortune. As for the poor, they are completely exempt. The Almighty says: "Allah does not impose on any person beyond what He has given him, and Allah will ease after the embarrassment." (Surah 65 At-Talaq, Divorce, verse 7)

each non muslim have to pay an amount of money in depend of his fortune,there is no 13.0000 dinar or a fix amount this is a lie for exemple :

`Umar he charged 48 dirhams to the rich, affluent 24 and 12 to the poorer class. This system has anticipated the modern tax concept which confirms the principle of disparity taxes according to ability to pay.

Indeed , Islam requires Muslims military service as an obligation of sufficiency community (fard al- kifayah ), or as an individual religious obligation (fard al-` ayn ) . Muslims are responsible for defending the nation, including non -Muslims are exempt although they live under its aegis. Since the Muslim nation is a nation founded on a creed or ideological nation ( according to contemporary expression) , that is to say it is based on a principle or idea, then such a nation can be defended by those who believe in the rightness of its principles and the correctness of his ideal. It is unthinkable that someone is forced to risk his life and face death for an idea he considers false or religion he does not believe. Moreover, the religion of the non-Muslims may prohibit them to defend another religion and fight in his favor. That is why Islam has limited the duty of the armed struggle ( jihad ) to Muslims , because it is a sacred religious obligation and a cult that allows a Muslim to get closer to God, and to such an extent that fighting for Islam is better rewarded than abstinent devotee who fasts the day and prays at night. It is for this reason that lawyers have stipulated that the fight in the Path of God is the best worship by which the Muslim is closer to God .

But Islam imposes on those non-Muslim citizens to contribute to the costs of defending and protecting the homeland by making them pay the jizyah , as it is known in Islamic terminology. Further that the jizyah is considered a symbol of submission to Muslim rule , it is actually a financial alternative to compulsory military service for Muslims .

so please dont invent some mount of money who never existed and dont lie on islam,no one was forced to be muslim,there is still the same first christian middle east community as the beginning,if muslim forced some one in lebanon there will be no christian,in egypt no christian in all the arab country no christian but as you can see the oldest christian community are still living under the muslim rule !
#22 · edited ·
Quote Originally Posted by xXwhitepandaXx View Post
This is very interesting Continue proving your points :P
Well the point is really something on the historical events and their ethical relation to modern day.

You see, muslims often resort to the "apologist" role during debates, saying "muslims made the place better" or "it was ok at the time" as if ethics can be disregarded and apologized for.
------------

Something I've always found fascinating is people's ethical viewpoint, especially when it comes to religion.

You see, all the abrahamic religions included things that were wrong.(not just Islam( Slavery, war, ridiculous laws, mistreatment of other people, are all present and accounted for in Islam, Judaism, and technically(by linking the old testament) so does Christianity.


Yet people believe that these things are ok either because "god said so" or some willfully ignorant excuse.


Maybe I should make a thread on it, seems a bit overkill for the same troll who's just made another account.
#30 ·
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