Naruto 673.

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I was fine with Naruto (because OnePiece always made my day) but nowadays im starting to turn into @Empire.

Still sad Gui didn't die. Fuck that kiddie shit.

There is one rule that Kishimoto has stuck to until now.
You SACRAFICE yourself....YOU STAY DEAD!

You can't give me one important character who sacraficed him or herself and didnt come back.
FUCK NARUTO.

Sigh
I really missed One Piece this week.

Originally Posted by KING

There is one rule that Kishimoto has stuck to until now.
You SACRAFICE yourself....YOU STAY DEAD!

lel, then ninja jesus goes and heals Pervy Sage, Neji and all other characters I couldn't care about.

Originally Posted by Empire

Remember when Naruto punched Neji and said "I don't have to be born genius, I work hard!" or something like that?

Lo and behold naruto is the "chosen one" with all these powerups from his birth, parents, and having the kyubi: All in his head.

Meanwhile neji died sacrificing himself to save the chosen one.

Yea... Good job bringing that up.
Naruto faced Neji and he believed that a person controls his or hers own destiny, while Neji believed fate is already sealed and destiny has been written. Naruto is supposed to stick with that motto of someone controlling their own destiny throughout the series.

Aaaand.... Now up to the latest chapter what do we see? Naruto is a reincarnation on Indira or w/e his name was. As he is reincarnated as this guy, his destiny is already written. :/
Therefore, Neji was right, Naruto was wrong... Naruto's "free will" is a load of BS as his destiny is already written out since Day 1.... So yeah.

//
While it's cool that they have new powers and such. There's nothing that bothers me more than Naruto's talk with Neji being all BS.

Except Naruto didn't know any of that when he was growing up, and none of it is the reason he has most of his power. He worked for almost everything he has.

The only characters that I can think of that worked harder than him in the show are Lee and Guy. Naruto trained his fucking ass off to get almost everything he has, and that is coming from the guy who was fucking up the clone jutsu (if being the "reincarnation" [which we've already been over how it's more that Ashura is watching him] meant so much then why was he fucking up back then? Why did he have to struggle to learn what he did?).

What people don't get is that up until the Sage gave him this latest power-up, him being the "reincarnation" of Ashura didn't fucking matter. It literally gave him NO power, the only thing it did was make the Sage give him this latest power-up that he just got. He worked to learn everything else that he learned, from molding chakra properly to learning the Rasengan to MAKING the Rasen-Shuriken (something not even the 4th could do) to learning to master Sage mode/absorb Natural chakra, etc.

The only power-up he had since birth was the fox, and we've known that since episode 1, if that's bothering you this far into the series you invested time in the wrong series. (Not to mention even controlling/using that was a struggle considering what a double edged blade it was).

Originally Posted by scotbud123

The only characters that I can think of that worked harder than him in the show are Lee and Guy.

lel practically everyone in his generation worked harder than him. He busted his ass at the very beginning of the show and had training arcs to get a power (he did this in a few days) while everyone else consistently trained over the years. Not like it matters, he's the eponymous character of a shounen manga. The plot armor and bullshit powerups generally come with shounen titles.

Originally Posted by scotbud123

I think you are not realizing the "relative" function of naruto's training.

Naruto trained....just not as much as everyone else. He also got a lot better opportunities than any of the other ninja:
-Has the genes of the strongest people in the village, which naruto has continually repeated how important genes are.
-Has tailed beast + automatic powerup.(won most of his battles, only reason he can use shadow clone as well.).
-Has highest ranked teacher for 3 man group + automatic powerup.
-Has one of the sanin for his other training + automatic powerup.
-Somehow receives even more powerups from his fox/parents through a dream.
-The demon fox is just "misunderstood" now too, so he's not fighting against it either.
-Then finally we get to his latest powerup, being the reincarnation of his parents.

If lets say rock lee had these same opportunities? He'd be pulling off the 8 gates like it was nothing.

-_-

Naruto trained, just not as much.
Naruto did stuff on his own, so did everyone else to a lot higher degree.

The reincarnation is just ONE more thing to add to the list.
---------------------------------------------------

For a show that started off about "hard work" it sure took a 180* twist to being about genetics and prophecy fulfillment.

We've had this argument before and for some reason you still don't seem to get that time does not equal effort. The reason Naruto's training went so much faster is because he used shadow clones to speed it up, which in turn made it 10x harder than it would have been to learn it normally because he had to absorb all of what he learned at once.

Naruto's training was far more difficult and straining than any other character in the show other than Lee and Guy. Just because it happened faster because of the clones does NOT mean it was easier, it was the exact opposite. (And even WITH the clones he still spent a decent amount of time on it, so imagine how much was actually done in that time).

Originally Posted by scotbud123

By birth he had more chakra due to his lineage and he has Kurama to amplify his chakra limit. That's why he could summon a trillion shadow clones and cheat the training system. Hinata, Sasuke and Neji in particular had life or death training under horrible conditions. All Naruto had to do was summon a shit ton of shadow clones by piggy backing off Kurama's chakra to become stronger.

Originally Posted by scotbud123

You do know that even the clones are only possible because of Kurama right? I mean imagine Lee being able to use clones! or hell, even sakura....lol.

I understand shonen "quick time" training, but cmon scot. Naruto trains the least and has chosen one written all over them.

Originally Posted by scotbud123

We've had this argument before and for some reason you still don't seem to get that time does not equal effort. The reason Naruto's training went so much faster is because he used shadow clones to speed it up, which in turn made it 10x harder than it would have been to learn it normally because he had to absorb all of what he learned at once.

Naruto's training was far more difficult and straining than any other character in the show other than Lee and Guy. Just because it happened faster because of the clones does NOT mean it was easier, it was the exact opposite. (And even WITH the clones he still spent a decent amount of time on it, so imagine how much was actually done in that time).

WAT. No no no no no. Using the shadow clones did not make it harder. Using the clones was incredibly efficient which was why they used them. Receiving information doesn't hurt Naruto at all, it's shown every single time he's trained that it doesn't cause him mental stress. It's the repeated use of the jutsu which is why he gets worn out, and the reason why he's able to put out so much is his lineage with the Uzumaki clan and having access to the Nine-tails' chakra.

Also I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that X character trained more than Y character when the show is called Naruto, focuses on Naruto and doesn't show anyone else training unless they're with Naruto. There's a two year timeskip and you literally don't see how anybody trained, just the results. The only reason Naruto is stronger than all the other characters are the plot devices used on him. Imagine if someone else was the main protagonist, like Ten Ten or Chouji. Have the entire show from their perspective and have everything the same. You'd literally just see Naruto and Sasuke boosting up in power over and over again from influences that come because of something else, not because they trained for it.

Naruto completely relied on the Nine-tails for the majority of the manga to fight for him, only to be brought back to his senses by someone else. Imagine if he didn't even have the Nine-tails in him, he'd be dead 10x over. Maybe even if he had any other Bijuu he'd be dead. But the Nine-tails has everything needed for Naruto's kit, the strongest power and infinite chakra.

And to answer your question on why Naruto couldn't even make a regular clone properly, it's because he had zero chakra control, zero. It wasn't until he was able to graduate and get on a team that he was actually taught how to manage his chakra. It's been hinted several times that Naruto might actually be a genius in ninjutsu with how fast he can learn them, prime example is him learning the Shadow Clone within one hour and use it to create hundreds of clones with his massive chakra reserve. No normal genin would be able to learn that level of a just that fast. Then again with learning the rasengan in a week, rasenshuriken in less than that, and a bunch more techniques learned much faster than normal. If you look back through the series and see the speed at which he learns jutsu, saying the only reason he was able to get so strong was hard work would be spitting in every other characters mouth and then punching them in the genitals.

Originally Posted by Synchromanica

If you look back through the series and see the speed at which he learns jutsu, saying the only reason he was able to get so strong was hard work would be spitting in every other characters mouth and then punching them in the genitals.[/FONT]

Ok I read the last, but I laughed at that.

Originally Posted by Synchromanica

WAT. No no no no no. Using the shadow clones did not make it harder. Using the clones was incredibly efficient which was why they used them. Receiving information doesn't hurt Naruto at all, it's shown every single time he's trained that it doesn't cause him mental stress. It's the repeated use of the jutsu which is why he gets worn out, and the reason why he's able to put out so much is his lineage with the Uzumaki clan and having access to the Nine-tails' chakra.

Also I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that X character trained more than Y character when the show is called Naruto, focuses on Naruto and doesn't show anyone else training unless they're with Naruto. There's a two year timeskip and you literally don't see how anybody trained, just the results. The only reason Naruto is stronger than all the other characters are the plot devices used on him. Imagine if someone else was the main protagonist, like Ten Ten or Chouji. Have the entire show from their perspective and have everything the same. You'd literally just see Naruto and Sasuke boosting up in power over and over again from influences that come because of something else, not because they trained for it.

Naruto completely relied on the Nine-tails for the majority of the manga to fight for him, only to be brought back to his senses by someone else. Imagine if he didn't even have the Nine-tails in him, he'd be dead 10x over. Maybe even if he had any other Bijuu he'd be dead. But the Nine-tails has everything needed for Naruto's kit, the strongest power and infinite chakra.

And to answer your question on why Naruto couldn't even make a regular clone properly, it's because he had zero chakra control, zero. It wasn't until he was able to graduate and get on a team that he was actually taught how to manage his chakra. It's been hinted several times that Naruto might actually be a genius in ninjutsu with how fast he can learn them, prime example is him learning the Shadow Clone within one hour and use it to create hundreds of clones with his massive chakra reserve. No normal genin would be able to learn that level of a just that fast. Then again with learning the rasengan in a week, rasenshuriken in less than that, and a bunch more techniques learned much faster than normal. If you look back through the series and see the speed at which he learns jutsu, saying the only reason he was able to get so strong was hard work would be spitting in every other characters mouth and then punching them in the genitals.

Of course it makes it harder, what are you talking about? Don't you remember when he first started training for the Rasen-Shuriken and he was using all of those clones next to the waterfall he almost passed out from being strained so much and was sweating his ass off and shit, to the point where even Kakashi thought he should stop.

Imagine you're lifting a 30 pound weight, let's say the stress that causes your body is "X". Wouldn't lifting 300 pounds worth of weight, a.k.a 10 30 pound weights, logically be 10x then? 10x is a bigger value than X, and would logically cause much more stress than just X. All of that stress on his body comes back to him instantly when the clones get dispersed.

I get he had Kurama and shit to help him, but he's had that since day 1, why get mad about it now? This whole "chosen one" thing only came about now, only helped him now, in now way affected his childhood, and didn't de-value anything he's done. Literally all it's EVER done for him power wise is get him this latest power-up from the sage, that's it.

Originally Posted by scotbud123

Of course it makes it harder, what are you talking about? Don't you remember when he first started training for the Rasen-Shuriken and he was using all of those clones next to the waterfall he almost passed out from being strained so much and was sweating his ass off and shit, to the point where even Kakashi thought he should stop.

Imagine you're lifting a 30 pound weight, let's say the stress that causes your body is "X". Wouldn't lifting 300 pounds worth of weight, a.k.a 10 30 pound weights, logically be 10x then? 10x is a bigger value than X, and would logically cause much more stress than just X. All of that stress on his body comes back to him instantly when the clones get dispersed.

I get he had Kurama and shit to help him, but he's had that since day 1, why get mad about it now? This whole "chosen one" thing only came about now, only helped him now, in now way affected his childhood, and didn't de-value anything he's done. Literally all it's EVER done for him power wise is get him this latest power-up from the sage, that's it.

I really don't think you understand how writing works. Yes, we just found out about him being the "chosen one", but that doesn't fucking mean it was never in him. In writing things don't pop into existence when they're introduced, they always existed, we're just not told until the author decides to tell us. So does this influence the story? Yes! Why? Because it shows that everything that's happened was part of this prophecy. Hell, even Naruto knew he was the chosen one before we even learned he was the reincarnation of the path of six sages son. And that's the biggest problem, it devalues everything he did pre-timeskip.

If you honestly think that just because it's introduced now, it doesn't change what's already happened then there's no use continuing this debate. Think about it like this, Naruto's predecessors, Ashura was exactly how Naruto was. Hashirama, who also had the spirit of Ashura in him became the strongest hokage. Because Naruto has the spirit of Ashura in him, he was bound to greatness. Having Naruto spout that nonsense to Neji while they fight is stupid, why is it stupid? Because the author made it like this. The reason the story Naruto has become so annoying to us readers is because of the way Kishimoto has made his story inconsistent. It could have been executed much better, but it wasn't and now there are so many things wrong with it I can't enjoy it as much as I used to.

And it you really want to argue on Naruto's rasenshuriken, yeah it causes mental stress, but before he even releases his clones look how extremely fast he was able to cut through the leaf, within five minutes. Don't put everything on his fucking clones that "Oh clones make it harder, it's thanks to the clones". No it's fucking not, he's able to learn jutsu quickly naturally. Do you want to know why? Because he's the main character. Normally, there's nothing wrong with that, but when your main character is so bent on working up from being a failure, but having so much advantage to being him, then really, it just leaves a bad taste.

Originally Posted by scotbud123

Well 2 things.

1. The clones don't strain naruto at all outside of creation.(which he's only been ever to do because of Kurama). He's repeatedly gotten them stabbed, burnt, and etc. It shows no sign of that ever effecting him. Lifting X object with clones requires less work than any normal person.

2. He's been the chosen one since the Pein arc, did you forget?

But even more so, it defines the rest of his life as being that chosen one. Maybe you don't understand how it works, but i'm pretty sure everyone here already does.

Originally Posted by Synchromanica

I really don't think you understand how writing works. Yes, we just found out about him being the "chosen one", but that doesn't fucking mean it was never in him. In writing things don't pop into existence when they're introduced, they always existed, we're just not told until the author decides to tell us. So does this influence the story? Yes! Why? Because it shows that everything that's happened was part of this prophecy. Hell, even Naruto knew he was the chosen one before we even learned he was the reincarnation of the path of six sages son. And that's the biggest problem, it devalues everything he did pre-timeskip.

If you honestly think that just because it's introduced now, it doesn't change what's already happened then there's no use continuing this debate. Think about it like this, Naruto's predecessors, Ashura was exactly how Naruto was. Hashirama, who also had the spirit of Ashura in him became the strongest hokage. Because Naruto has the spirit of Ashura in him, he was bound to greatness. Having Naruto spout that nonsense to Neji while they fight is stupid, why is it stupid? Because the author made it like this. The reason the story Naruto has become so annoying to us readers is because of the way Kishimoto has made his story inconsistent. It could have been executed much better, but it wasn't and now there are so many things wrong with it I can't enjoy it as much as I used to.

And it you really want to argue on Naruto's rasenshuriken, yeah it causes mental stress, but before he even releases his clones look how extremely fast he was able to cut through the leaf, within five minutes. Don't put everything on his fucking clones that "Oh clones make it harder, it's thanks to the clones". No it's fucking not, he's able to learn jutsu quickly naturally. Do you want to know why? Because he's the main character. Normally, there's nothing wrong with that, but when your main character is so bent on working up from being a failure, but having so much advantage to being him, then really, it just leaves a bad taste.

Except it didn't fucking GIVE him anything, Ashura was just chilling there. He got ZERO power from Ashura being there, none at all. The only thing it's EVER helped him with power wise is making the sage like him enough to give him the latest power up, outside of that, it has done literally nothing. I fail to see how it "devalues" anything, like I said he still worked for EVERYTHING he had before this point, and had NO help from Ashura being there. So I really don't think YOU understand how writing works, or this basic concept wouldn't be so confusing for you.

You don't understand that Ashura only chose to inhabit their body BECAUSE they (Naruto and Hashi) were ALREADY like that. They didn't MAKE them like that, they CHOSE them BECAUSE they were like that. Even then, after choosing to barbarically chill in them, he didn't give them any power.

He didn't learn a single thing in the show that didn't require him to work his fucking ass off other than this new power-up, it's the only thing that's ever been handed to him. Not that power has much to do with his struggle, his struggle had a lot more to do with him HAVING the Nine-Tails, BEING ridiculed, emotional shit.

Originally Posted by Empire

1. Yes they do, not because they just dispersed but because anything that they learn or experience goes back to Naruto when they disperse. As for them dying and stuff, I mean it didn't happen too often they usually dispersed only from kicks or punches and other non-deadly things, but yeah it's happened. I guess it's more of a mental thing, which is still a strain.

Or Kishi just fucked up there, but what he did explicitly state (and you can go back and re-read or re-watch this if you'd like) is that doing that strained the shit out of him. Not only was it stated, but we also SAW it for ourselves.

2. Yeah, Nagato did choose him, but that was because of Naruto winning him over. Sure, you can call that cheap and cheesy, but it had nothing to do with Ashura or the Sage, and didn't give him any POWER. It was just Nagato and Konan trusting the future to him, which is pretty fucking awesome if you ask me.

"I'm pretty sure everyone else here does", I'm pretty sure 500 years ago everybody thought the world was a fucking square, that didn't really make them right did it? What a petty way to try and devalue and argument lol. Anyways, bottom line is before this point Ashura being there did NOTHING to make him stronger and NOTHING to help him, at all, in any way. Him being the "chosen one" had no effect at all in the show, maybe after the Pain arc because of what Nagato said it did, but that had nothing to do with Ashura or the Sage.