I honestly don't recall taking about anything besides the future of apps.
~
~
Code question
Nah, don't lock, most interesting hijack ever >.>
Hmmmm?
I consider this a intellectual conversations between a few developers and some random discussions on PI in between, I was not aware this was a debate or conflict. If you think I am wrong in my assessment of the future and it's inevitable design.
Then no you don't win. If you understand that I understand there is a place in the world for C++ developers though they will be minuscule and
far less paid jobs, then sure... You can call it a victory, The difference is arkh , I am literally in the industry, I am literally developing every day , every hour, I go to sleep at 5-7Am every morning only to wake up 3-4 hours later exausted (and that's if I am lucky) And I see these changes, I have seen these changes for the longest time.
You think C++ is so powerful , and because it is deep rooted that it won't fade, sorry that is not the sign of a true developer, that is the sign of a developer who is blinded by the current power and doesn't have the foresight to see beyond it.
Binary...? Where has it gone, Lisp, Scheme, Fortran1..
Dead languages (for the most part, though at some level these languages exist or forms of them) it is inevitable, sorry
I consider this a intellectual conversations between a few developers and some random discussions on PI in between, I was not aware this was a debate or conflict. If you think I am wrong in my assessment of the future and it's inevitable design.
Then no you don't win. If you understand that I understand there is a place in the world for C++ developers though they will be minuscule and
far less paid jobs, then sure... You can call it a victory, The difference is arkh , I am literally in the industry, I am literally developing every day , every hour, I go to sleep at 5-7Am every morning only to wake up 3-4 hours later exausted (and that's if I am lucky) And I see these changes, I have seen these changes for the longest time.
You think C++ is so powerful , and because it is deep rooted that it won't fade, sorry that is not the sign of a true developer, that is the sign of a developer who is blinded by the current power and doesn't have the foresight to see beyond it.
Binary...? Where has it gone, Lisp, Scheme, Fortran1..
Dead languages (for the most part, though at some level these languages exist or forms of them) it is inevitable, sorry
It was all meant in good humor you don't have to get all grumpy on me.
~
If I didn't know better I'd say you're beginning to show your age, although I myself would feel insulted if you thought I was serious with that "Does this mean I win....?" comment, I surely don't come off that immature do I?
~
With my own replies I was responding by my own preferences, which in all honesty I might be more interested in the engineering aspects of programming rather than software. So it's only natural my attraction is to ASM I may sound absurd or masochistic for saying so, but I wouldn't mind throwing my hand into understanding OP Code if I got good enough at that craft.
While it may come to be operating systems and software, things of the like will progress to become even more higher level in programming. Software isn't really a particular interest of mine so I don't feel inspired to put up any types of defensive statements on that front for ASM/C/C++, those languages would be dead when it would come to an age of web based computing (client-side atleast).
I don't care for C++ too much either, I only choose to continue learning it because learning purely on ASM would be probably a bit intense, I figure C is superior to C++, and higher level languages are of a class of their own not to be judge side-by-side with any of the three.
You should get more sleep.
To say C++ industry is to be minuscule and underpaid, is a little too far reaching a man's reward is only minesculed by the extent of his own ambition.
I'm purely an enthusiast my cousin is a VB coder working for some people idk he's professional I guess,.and it doesn't take too long to realize we have two completely different ways of looking at things. By working ASM and forcing myself to learn how computers actually work I'm actually trying to forge a future of better computing by learning how they work and making them better, my cousin's considerations is making apps and making sure he gets paid and maybe even having fun also. I talked to him about programming... He said VB is great it's fun, I said I enjoy C++, he says "okay". Linux comes up and I talk about how great it is with dedicated developers fiends of the oldschool C & ASM. His response was that's alot of work and those guys don't really get paid, "If they don't do it who else is going to do it?" " that kind of stuff is for people with no lives", "VB can't make real-time applications for things like planes" "yeah... but those kind of people have no lives, and VB can do alot of stuff too"
And somewhere in before that he started saying why would I want to program ASM that stuff is alot of work., I didn't have a response for him.
I never considered why would I want to learn these things, I just knew I wanted to learn these things because I want to learn more about computers not so much about applications or those things.
Having an argument about languages when the real reason why I'm learning to program is to observe what makes a computer a computer. When were looking from such different points of views it would be hard to have an argument anyways it's not like we would be having much of a coherrent debate with those differing perspectives in mind.
I look at programming languages as complete tools, my only intention for those tools is to observe how these machines work. Which is why I've only truly cared about learning ASM. To someone like me who only cares about how things work and simply learning, money is no consideration to me, neither is the amount of effort required in the process.If the market for software were to change I wouldn't care because of that I guess.
~
If I didn't know better I'd say you're beginning to show your age, although I myself would feel insulted if you thought I was serious with that "Does this mean I win....?" comment, I surely don't come off that immature do I?
~
With my own replies I was responding by my own preferences, which in all honesty I might be more interested in the engineering aspects of programming rather than software. So it's only natural my attraction is to ASM I may sound absurd or masochistic for saying so, but I wouldn't mind throwing my hand into understanding OP Code if I got good enough at that craft.
While it may come to be operating systems and software, things of the like will progress to become even more higher level in programming. Software isn't really a particular interest of mine so I don't feel inspired to put up any types of defensive statements on that front for ASM/C/C++, those languages would be dead when it would come to an age of web based computing (client-side atleast).
I don't care for C++ too much either, I only choose to continue learning it because learning purely on ASM would be probably a bit intense, I figure C is superior to C++, and higher level languages are of a class of their own not to be judge side-by-side with any of the three.
You should get more sleep.
To say C++ industry is to be minuscule and underpaid, is a little too far reaching a man's reward is only minesculed by the extent of his own ambition.
I'm purely an enthusiast my cousin is a VB coder working for some people idk he's professional I guess,.and it doesn't take too long to realize we have two completely different ways of looking at things. By working ASM and forcing myself to learn how computers actually work I'm actually trying to forge a future of better computing by learning how they work and making them better, my cousin's considerations is making apps and making sure he gets paid and maybe even having fun also. I talked to him about programming... He said VB is great it's fun, I said I enjoy C++, he says "okay". Linux comes up and I talk about how great it is with dedicated developers fiends of the oldschool C & ASM. His response was that's alot of work and those guys don't really get paid, "If they don't do it who else is going to do it?" " that kind of stuff is for people with no lives", "VB can't make real-time applications for things like planes" "yeah... but those kind of people have no lives, and VB can do alot of stuff too"
And somewhere in before that he started saying why would I want to program ASM that stuff is alot of work., I didn't have a response for him.
I never considered why would I want to learn these things, I just knew I wanted to learn these things because I want to learn more about computers not so much about applications or those things.
Having an argument about languages when the real reason why I'm learning to program is to observe what makes a computer a computer. When were looking from such different points of views it would be hard to have an argument anyways it's not like we would be having much of a coherrent debate with those differing perspectives in mind.
I look at programming languages as complete tools, my only intention for those tools is to observe how these machines work. Which is why I've only truly cared about learning ASM. To someone like me who only cares about how things work and simply learning, money is no consideration to me, neither is the amount of effort required in the process.If the market for software were to change I wouldn't care because of that I guess.
I wasn't getting grumpy 
and in regrds to showing my age, ha ;p references to ancient Computer languages is Computer Science 101.
@ sleep, definatly need it, But between me and you (:/ and all of mpgh.net) I set ridiculous time lines.
Client: "Ok Mr. NextGen, We are looking to launch this in 1 month, what is the typical timeline for something like this"
Me: I will get it to you in a week
Client: We look forward working with you
Me: Walks out of clients meeting room and regrets the whole conversation, because there is no way I can get it done in a week without no sleep and help.
In either case, Every language compliments something, I said that in my initial post which has caused this conversation, I understand that each language has it's strengths, but when asked or commented on, I suggest that those who are serious about being in the application development industry, should learn numerous languages (as I have) especially HTML5/Java
all this is in my opinion
and in regrds to showing my age, ha ;p references to ancient Computer languages is Computer Science 101.@ sleep, definatly need it, But between me and you (:/ and all of mpgh.net) I set ridiculous time lines.
Client: "Ok Mr. NextGen, We are looking to launch this in 1 month, what is the typical timeline for something like this"
Me: I will get it to you in a week
Client: We look forward working with you
Me: Walks out of clients meeting room and regrets the whole conversation, because there is no way I can get it done in a week without no sleep and help.
In either case, Every language compliments something, I said that in my initial post which has caused this conversation, I understand that each language has it's strengths, but when asked or commented on, I suggest that those who are serious about being in the application development industry, should learn numerous languages (as I have) especially HTML5/Java
all this is in my opinion
Originally Posted by NextGen1
Client: "Ok Mr. NextGen, We are looking to launch this in 1 month, what is the typical timeline for something like this"
~
Wouldn't it be more beneficial to just know as much languages as possible? Whether it's HTML or Assembly..
Agreed, the more the better is really my point
I think it comes down to this
a) People have their preferences - Totally unrelated to whatever the current hip buzzwords are (or driven by them)
b) People have their own personal/professional experiences which usually reinforce their view on the software world
c) Based on this, 2 people with vastly different experiences can have two completely different outlooks which while at first glance seem polar opposites BOTH are valid and have a place.
NextGen seems to be coming from a world where the emphasis is on using the latest and greatest so to speak to deliver (webbased/webenabled) user-end "applications" while arhks perspective is more from the lower level device/systems development arena. It's very similar to 3-tier application development - You've got your Front End UI, your business logic and your database backend. If you were to talk to people who work on these layers you'd get 3 different viewpoints on the world, which while seeming different all are valid. (I've been all over this map so it's easy for me to see all angles)
I personally disagree C++'s portion will be minimal. Yes there's a lot of 'new' projects going on with other languages, but go walk around at the MS Campus, Amazon, Intel or any of these places and what you run into is boatloads of C++. (even if you look at jobs at google itself they ask for tons of C++). I still get inundated with emails and calls for C++ projects. Also with languages like VB being 'easier to pickup' for people who may not have the natural inclination/talent for it (I'm sure you know quite a few people like this where you wonder why they even do this for a living since they suck so badly at it,nor do they seem to enjoy it...), there's way more people doing those types of jobs than C++ jobs which makes it fairly easy to find something to do in C++.
I think the lines between 'application development' vs 'Web development' have gotten blurred over the last few years (on purpose, especially nowadays with ajax etc). A lot of the items NextGen Mentions, to me are (or at least a few years ago were) considered 'web development' and not application development (which to me implied to reside on the client machine instead of served up in a browser etc). I've done plenty of web development over the years (asp/asp.net/php/perl/JS/java / lamp stack etc) even at one point - before google even existed - wrote my own searchengine. (should've sold it! lol) I just didn't like it as much as straight up C++ development.
Also even in that realm - UI Development is boring to me - any idiot can slap some boxes on the screen, or do some fancy drawing - I get more satisfaction from a good architecture of the project, proper design patterns and efficient algorithms etc. (the stuff most users would never even see). So instead of switching what I did every time a new popular thing came out I decided to simply stick with C++ and make my living that way. Only the last 5 years or so have I voluntarily moved into the C# realm for windows development since it made my day to day work of windows based apps so much easier.
Even using that though is sometimes a struggle with customers who are so locked down that they don't allow much of anything to happen on a machine or have a outdated system requirement of nothing above win2k SP1 etc. A simple webservice call? Forget it.. auto download an update? forget it - Running an app in a webbrowser that interacts with contents or hardware devices on the local machine? no way in hell. I've even had request to 'rewrite' our current software to use straight up C++ so that the customer would not have to install the .NET Framework, or add support for 'Office 97' (talk about taking a step or 5 backwards to support 13+ year old software) lol
As far as HTML5/Java? If that's your market, then yes that's what's up & coming and good to learn. For me though it's not applicable - I can't run HTML5 or Java on a 2kb embedded EEPROM of a device that only supports C++ & Assembly, nor do a lot of my customers want anything to run in a webbrowser for their actual client applications. I've been told many times to my face - "I don't care if you have a web-app that works with multiple devices in a browser (which I did make & offered)- we want a 'native' solution".
All that said - I again want to iterate everyone is 'right' here , because it applies to them and part of the software dev market they deal with;
In the end the actual language is just a 'tool' like a wrench is to a mechanic. The good "mechanic" can switch tools when required (by market or requested by the client) with relative ease because the principles & foundation of software development carry over. However, if you have a favorite tool that you like to use there's nothing wrong with that (be it C++, HTML , Java or ASM).
And there's plenty of work for everyone so that everyone can use whatever tools/languages they please and still make a living. And the more languages you know, the more flexible you are and the more projects open up to you - I'm just a stubborn guy who prefers his C++ & C# with a sprinkling of ASM and says : screw the other projects... I'm too busy anyway for more work! lol
(But when I need to fix someone else's work it sure is handy to know PHP/JAVA etc etc)
a) People have their preferences - Totally unrelated to whatever the current hip buzzwords are (or driven by them)
b) People have their own personal/professional experiences which usually reinforce their view on the software world
c) Based on this, 2 people with vastly different experiences can have two completely different outlooks which while at first glance seem polar opposites BOTH are valid and have a place.
NextGen seems to be coming from a world where the emphasis is on using the latest and greatest so to speak to deliver (webbased/webenabled) user-end "applications" while arhks perspective is more from the lower level device/systems development arena. It's very similar to 3-tier application development - You've got your Front End UI, your business logic and your database backend. If you were to talk to people who work on these layers you'd get 3 different viewpoints on the world, which while seeming different all are valid. (I've been all over this map so it's easy for me to see all angles)
I personally disagree C++'s portion will be minimal. Yes there's a lot of 'new' projects going on with other languages, but go walk around at the MS Campus, Amazon, Intel or any of these places and what you run into is boatloads of C++. (even if you look at jobs at google itself they ask for tons of C++). I still get inundated with emails and calls for C++ projects. Also with languages like VB being 'easier to pickup' for people who may not have the natural inclination/talent for it (I'm sure you know quite a few people like this where you wonder why they even do this for a living since they suck so badly at it,nor do they seem to enjoy it...), there's way more people doing those types of jobs than C++ jobs which makes it fairly easy to find something to do in C++.
I think the lines between 'application development' vs 'Web development' have gotten blurred over the last few years (on purpose, especially nowadays with ajax etc). A lot of the items NextGen Mentions, to me are (or at least a few years ago were) considered 'web development' and not application development (which to me implied to reside on the client machine instead of served up in a browser etc). I've done plenty of web development over the years (asp/asp.net/php/perl/JS/java / lamp stack etc) even at one point - before google even existed - wrote my own searchengine. (should've sold it! lol) I just didn't like it as much as straight up C++ development.
Also even in that realm - UI Development is boring to me - any idiot can slap some boxes on the screen, or do some fancy drawing - I get more satisfaction from a good architecture of the project, proper design patterns and efficient algorithms etc. (the stuff most users would never even see). So instead of switching what I did every time a new popular thing came out I decided to simply stick with C++ and make my living that way. Only the last 5 years or so have I voluntarily moved into the C# realm for windows development since it made my day to day work of windows based apps so much easier.
Even using that though is sometimes a struggle with customers who are so locked down that they don't allow much of anything to happen on a machine or have a outdated system requirement of nothing above win2k SP1 etc. A simple webservice call? Forget it.. auto download an update? forget it - Running an app in a webbrowser that interacts with contents or hardware devices on the local machine? no way in hell. I've even had request to 'rewrite' our current software to use straight up C++ so that the customer would not have to install the .NET Framework, or add support for 'Office 97' (talk about taking a step or 5 backwards to support 13+ year old software) lol
As far as HTML5/Java? If that's your market, then yes that's what's up & coming and good to learn. For me though it's not applicable - I can't run HTML5 or Java on a 2kb embedded EEPROM of a device that only supports C++ & Assembly, nor do a lot of my customers want anything to run in a webbrowser for their actual client applications. I've been told many times to my face - "I don't care if you have a web-app that works with multiple devices in a browser (which I did make & offered)- we want a 'native' solution".
All that said - I again want to iterate everyone is 'right' here , because it applies to them and part of the software dev market they deal with;
In the end the actual language is just a 'tool' like a wrench is to a mechanic. The good "mechanic" can switch tools when required (by market or requested by the client) with relative ease because the principles & foundation of software development carry over. However, if you have a favorite tool that you like to use there's nothing wrong with that (be it C++, HTML , Java or ASM).
And there's plenty of work for everyone so that everyone can use whatever tools/languages they please and still make a living. And the more languages you know, the more flexible you are and the more projects open up to you - I'm just a stubborn guy who prefers his C++ & C# with a sprinkling of ASM and says : screw the other projects... I'm too busy anyway for more work! lol
(But when I need to fix someone else's work it sure is handy to know PHP/JAVA etc etc)For the most part I agree with everything you are saying, Yet somehow my point is missed, HTML and Java are not up and coming to me because I am embedded in the field , The fact is I am a Device Application Developer, what that means is I conform to the clients need to develop a application native to the device and usually native to the language. So I have developed in just about every native language for every devices, except for C++ and Objective C (though I am learning it)
Java, is only a "web based" language by perception, in fact Java was developed originally as a language for TV boxes, Java is a Subset of C++ implemented in C.
Now let's take a step back and look at that from a professional business standpoint. Would it be more efficient to use a cross platform language, or a native language? Yes , native languages have their perks, but to they really out weight the pro's of using a "Cross Platform Language?"
With that said, No I am not saying it is a good idea to replace a Web application with a native application, but I am saying, if you were the CEO of Major corporation, what would you do? If it was me, I would look at what Chrome OS is doing and mimic it, access to all your files anywhere? Lets do it.., Minimal resources? Store procedures? Offline Browsing? Do it, Do it , Do it, That is what these major corporations are thinking.
operating systems in todays world are really conceptually upside down, stop and think about it for one second...There developed in the hardest way possible, Working your way upwards from processors, memory, displays and eventually hitting the interface which reaches the End-User.
Shouldn't Computing power make life simpler, Google Chrome OS is displaying exactly what should already be happening in the industry, they are taking that same Computing power and unifying your life , your tasks, your documents and even online,
As a developer, we multi-task, but lets look not as a developer, but as the end user (as any software/application/website designer should)
Though we have time for multiple windows, 4 or 5 screens, 3 Servers , 25 ftp accounts, 150 domains, 3 mobile devices, one zune, and a I-Pod
and now for me 4 laptops and 3 computers, we multi task, but the average end user goes on their computer for one thing, and that is....Internet access, which is why broadband became so popular, because the world not only wants to be online, but they need to be online. So if the average user is online, then where should ad placement be? On T.V or internet? (both obviously, but as time progresses, you will see more advertisement online) would it make sense to create web based applications or continue to create OS specific applications? In a OS like Google Chrome, Every Document, Every File, the End Users whole digital life.....can be accessed from any net-connected device anywhere in the world.
Knowing that, if you were Bill Gates, and Google was offering a Open Source OS (linux based) with these capabilities... what would you do, You may not offer a free OS, but you will offer a similar system, except, you would only do it better, because you see where google went wrong, and you know what you can add to make it better, and once you release it, Mr. I-Candy himself, Steve Jobs, is going to do the same things, he is going to release a Mac version, except his is going to be even friendly, and even more appealing. That my friend is how "trends start" and that is how innovations begin, From Intel's' idea about an I-Phone, to the I-Phone to the Instinct and Instinct 2, to the palm pre, to whatever is coming out tomorrow, the whole industry changed, because one person, one company had an idea, and no one who wants to be successful in their future is safe from that.
Fact is up until now, Operating systems have been traveling in the wrong direction, but it will soon be where simplicity and unity is how things operate.
Java, is only a "web based" language by perception, in fact Java was developed originally as a language for TV boxes, Java is a Subset of C++ implemented in C.
Now let's take a step back and look at that from a professional business standpoint. Would it be more efficient to use a cross platform language, or a native language? Yes , native languages have their perks, but to they really out weight the pro's of using a "Cross Platform Language?"
With that said, No I am not saying it is a good idea to replace a Web application with a native application, but I am saying, if you were the CEO of Major corporation, what would you do? If it was me, I would look at what Chrome OS is doing and mimic it, access to all your files anywhere? Lets do it.., Minimal resources? Store procedures? Offline Browsing? Do it, Do it , Do it, That is what these major corporations are thinking.
operating systems in todays world are really conceptually upside down, stop and think about it for one second...There developed in the hardest way possible, Working your way upwards from processors, memory, displays and eventually hitting the interface which reaches the End-User.
Shouldn't Computing power make life simpler, Google Chrome OS is displaying exactly what should already be happening in the industry, they are taking that same Computing power and unifying your life , your tasks, your documents and even online,
As a developer, we multi-task, but lets look not as a developer, but as the end user (as any software/application/website designer should)
Though we have time for multiple windows, 4 or 5 screens, 3 Servers , 25 ftp accounts, 150 domains, 3 mobile devices, one zune, and a I-Pod
and now for me 4 laptops and 3 computers, we multi task, but the average end user goes on their computer for one thing, and that is....Internet access, which is why broadband became so popular, because the world not only wants to be online, but they need to be online. So if the average user is online, then where should ad placement be? On T.V or internet? (both obviously, but as time progresses, you will see more advertisement online) would it make sense to create web based applications or continue to create OS specific applications? In a OS like Google Chrome, Every Document, Every File, the End Users whole digital life.....can be accessed from any net-connected device anywhere in the world.
Knowing that, if you were Bill Gates, and Google was offering a Open Source OS (linux based) with these capabilities... what would you do, You may not offer a free OS, but you will offer a similar system, except, you would only do it better, because you see where google went wrong, and you know what you can add to make it better, and once you release it, Mr. I-Candy himself, Steve Jobs, is going to do the same things, he is going to release a Mac version, except his is going to be even friendly, and even more appealing. That my friend is how "trends start" and that is how innovations begin, From Intel's' idea about an I-Phone, to the I-Phone to the Instinct and Instinct 2, to the palm pre, to whatever is coming out tomorrow, the whole industry changed, because one person, one company had an idea, and no one who wants to be successful in their future is safe from that.
Fact is up until now, Operating systems have been traveling in the wrong direction, but it will soon be where simplicity and unity is how things operate.
Lol no your point is not missed, at least not on me.
All I'm saying is:
you are in your particular sub-field - where those requirements and trends are taking place, and make sense. (been there done that - not for me )
I'm in mine (and know of many others) where Java HTML et al. don't make much sense, nor do web-based (e.g. requiring online connectivity etc) approaches.
That's why I said both our (and other) viewpoints are valid because they really apply to different subsets of the development market.
It's just nice to see people who know their respective stuff and do this for a living instead of the copy-paste leechers this place is overflowing with
Little fresh/alternative perspective/discussion is good for everyone imho.
All I'm saying is:
you are in your particular sub-field - where those requirements and trends are taking place, and make sense. (been there done that - not for me
)I'm in mine (and know of many others) where Java HTML et al. don't make much sense, nor do web-based (e.g. requiring online connectivity etc) approaches.
That's why I said both our (and other) viewpoints are valid because they really apply to different subsets of the development market.
It's just nice to see people who know their respective stuff and do this for a living instead of the copy-paste leechers this place is overflowing with
Little fresh/alternative perspective/discussion is good for everyone imho. Originally Posted by B1ackAnge1
It's just nice to see people who know their respective stuff and do this for a living instead of the copy-paste leechers this place is overflowing with Little fresh/alternative perspective/discussion is good for everyone imho.
Little fresh/alternative perspective/discussion is good for everyone imho.Tho I don't really talk here, I enjoy reading it, and writing longass replies only to delete them when I'm finished because they'd probably look stupid(just like this one.)
I don't like the idea of having applications online and accessed from your browser, don't see why other people would want that >.>
But then again I also don't see how people can like the new shiny and gay UI that steam designed for making Mac fanboys feel at home, and somehow alot of people like it(either the steam forums are full of fags or they're all Mac fanboys, although thats basicly the same >.>)
Ha, My real name is Richard , Just didn't want to post my last name 
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Hmm, someone should rename this to a discussion thread.
Well, I don't know enough to talk about the development of languages. Nor do I know enough languages to know which are best for certain purposes. Though I do know what I like and I don't really have any intentions of learning web based languages for now. I prefer learning languages that will give me a more general understanding of how everything is executed, then once I go into a more "high level" language, I will understand what's going on under the hood.
Yeah.... that's what I think .__.
Just trying to get into this conversation.
Well, I don't know enough to talk about the development of languages. Nor do I know enough languages to know which are best for certain purposes. Though I do know what I like and I don't really have any intentions of learning web based languages for now. I prefer learning languages that will give me a more general understanding of how everything is executed, then once I go into a more "high level" language, I will understand what's going on under the hood.
Yeah.... that's what I think .__.
Just trying to get into this conversation.
This thread is closed for replies.
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