Abortion

Originally Posted by MOST PLAYED

answer this. Would you live a shitty life or not live it at all?

A shitty life with the chance of turning it into a good life.

It's not a human being's call to say who lives and who dies.

Claiming that he will suffer otherwise isn't a fuckin justification to kill a human being .

Just because he will have a bad life doesn't mean it's the parents' say to kill them.

It's why foster care and orphanages exist.

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

A shitty life with the chance of turning it into a good life.

It's not a human being's call to say who lives and who dies.

Claiming that he will suffer otherwise isn't a fuckin justification to kill a human being .

Just because he will have a bad life doesn't mean it's the parents' say to kill them.

It's why foster care and orphanages exist.

the baby will get bullied at school and when he gets home it will be his parents just screaming about him which will probably result in him running away/suciede

Originally Posted by MOST PLAYED

the baby will get bullied at school and when he gets home it will be his parents just screaming about him which will probably result in him running away/suciede

Are you serious?

First of all let's make it clear that you are assuming. You don't know whether this will happen or not.

Also are you hearing yourself?

You are basically saying that because you think the kid will get bullied and commit suicide it's ok to just kill him ourselves.

That's fucking cold.

It's not your place to kill him for that. Let him live his own life. He wants to take his own life, let him. He wants to run away, that's his own decision. He wants to do both? ALright. But to kill him yourself just because you are assuming all this will happen is the definition of cruel.

Also just to put this out there, read this. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

l .

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

Contraceptives and abortion are two very different animals.

While I don't approve of contraceptives, they are preventative measures.

They don't kill fetuses.

What they basically do is stop ovulation so that when sex happens, there are no eggs for the male's sperm to be fertilized.

Preventing egg cells from being produced and killing a developing baby fetus are not similar things.

Just because the person made the baby does not give them the right to kill it.

If parents are allowed to kill their fetuses, why not let them kill their children? They're one and the same really.

And that excuse of "oh they're not capable of raising a child" or "what if the parents are junkies or abusive" is bull. You are basically saying that because they can't raise a child then they kill it. That's fucking heartless. Why not just go look in all the houses and kill children whose parents are idiots. Listen to yourself for a minute and understand that these fetuses are live beings and have as much of a right to live as you. Not giving them a chance of survival and playing god is immoral and heartless.

Yea, you do have a good point.
You win.

if men can get pregnant abortion would be 100% legal

Originally Posted by Yellow 13

if men can get pregnant abortion would be 100% legal

It already is 100% legal -_-

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

It already is 100% legal -_-

not in every country

Originally Posted by Yellow 13

not in every country

Well you're right about one thing and that it's not legal in every country.

Interestingly enough, almost all countries where abortion is illegal are 3rd world developing countries.

So there can be an argument made for your point, as most of these countries value males more than females(despite all their laws not segregating males and females, ie both can vote.)

However I can assure you that gender is not the reason here.

Mostly, it's religion that is to blame.

The Roman Catholic Church condemns Abortion

Abortion after 4 months is prohibited in islam(unless it threatens the mother's life), as the fetus is considered a living thing

And the same goes for Judaism

Also you can look up various occasions where religious organizations use their power in 3rd world countries to crush all hopes of pro-abortion laws.

Meh religion.

World would be so much better without it. (yea I live in a "red" zone)

Originally Posted by Empire

:/

From my perspective:

People against abortion:
-Haven't given childbirth, don't know the problems financially and medically of being pregnant, the cost of even having a child much less taking care of it.
-Putting their views onto other people because "hey why not, it's not my problem and I won't have to deal with it" especially males. Males have no say in this subject whatsoever.
-Wishy washy moral values. I.e. abortion is wrong but contraceptives are ok, although they serve the same purpose.
- Debating a "fine line" as if there is some absolute value when human life is considered "sacred".

Here, george carlin owning abortion talks:

Feel thats enough for the thread.

my bad didn't see this

But see here's the thing, you debated the people against abortion not abortion it self.

I'm talking about abortion itself, I don't give two shits about the conservatives that are against it.

And personally I dislike contraceptives and think they should be your last resort, as there is no killing involved. However, abortion is on a completely different scale as the cells have already been fertilized and the baby is in the process of being made.

Also, just because contraceptives and abortion serve the same purpose does not mean they are one and the same. It is the way in which the process is carried out is where the fault happens. The Indian Removal Act of 1830(Which basically kicked out more than 25,000 indians out of their homes with no where to go) and The Louisiana Purchase both held the same purpose(rhyming accidentally

) and that is to expand American territory. Does that make The Indian Removal Act good? No. Does it make the the Louisiana Purchase bad? No.

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On a side note, let me tell you, some people that are pro-abortion are not so good as well. As I stated in my post:

Planned Parenthood Founder Margaret Sanger said, “The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it.” and a book called “Woman, Morality, and Birth Control”, the same woman from before says this, “Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race.” Her organization alone does approximately 300,000 abortions every year mind you. The 30 executives in this organizations make about $200,000 to $300,000 each. The organization received $487 million from the federal government in 2010.

Not to mention the money some corrupt doctors make off of selling aborted baby parts and abortion fees.

Now is all that the reason I am against abortion? Not at all. I am simply against the concept of killing developing fetuses. I don't think I should be labeled an ignorant conservative with iffy morals because of that *wink* .

Originally Posted by MOST PLAYED

answer this. Would you live a shitty life or not live it at all?

:/ That's a very irrelevant question.

-all the responses to this are irrelevant on the basis of claiming life, so i'm gonna ignore them.

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

It's not a human being's call to say who lives and who dies.
.

So....shut up if you believe that?

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

my bad didn't see this

But see here's the thing, you debated the people against abortion not abortion it self.

I'm talking about abortion itself, I don't give two shits about the conservatives that are against it.

And personally I dislike contraceptives and think they should be your last resort, as there is no killing involved. However, abortion is on a completely different scale as the cells have already been fertilized and the baby is in the process of being made.

Also, just because contraceptives and abortion serve the same purpose does not mean they are one and the same. It is the way in which the process is carried out is where the fault happens. The Indian Removal Act of 1830(Which basically kicked out more than 25,000 indians out of their homes with no where to go) and The Louisiana Purchase both held the same purpose(rhyming accidentally

) and that is to expand American territory. Does that make The Indian Removal Act good? No. Does it make the the Louisiana Purchase bad? No.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note, let me tell you, some people that are pro-abortion are not so good as well. As I stated in my post:

Not to mention the money some corrupt doctors make off of selling aborted baby parts and abortion fees.

Now is all that the reason I am against abortion? Not at all. I am simply against the concept of killing developing fetuses. I don't think I should be labeled an ignorant conservative with iffy morals because of that *wink* .

Ugh, the problem is that the topic and the people are the same thing. Moral crusaders who won't help out the kid once he's born will fight for the unborn child not to be aborted. It's "imposing your will upon others" situation where you don't believe it should happen and you voice your opinion, yet you actually don't have a say in the matter, and aren't willing to help out the cause on a realistic level.

This is generally the biggest problem with anti-abortion talk, the people who are against it really don't care about the people having the abortions, they just want them to live their life according to how they want it to be.

Same shit for the gays, trans, and any other non-mainstream group really.
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Contraceptives and abortion both serve the same purpose: Not to have a child. Comparing the indian removal act with the lousiana purchase is a horrible example, mostly because they aren't related but in the vaguest of sense. Where as abortion and contraceptives have the exact same purpose.

Not only that, you are trying to argue that one is an "atrocity" while one isn't, while abortion compared to what the IRA was is kind of silly. I mean why not the holocaust or something, if you are going to overblow it by that much.
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Your view as abortions are "killing" is just naive. It's not more "killing" than a condom or any other contraceptive.

It's a preventative measure so that there is not a child born.

EXAMPLE: Lets say a couple is having recreational sex.(yes this is a thing, shocking as it may be to you). The condom breaks. She gets pregant.

The couple was not trying to have a baby, nor did they want one.(for whatever reason you may list, dislike of children, financial, unfit parents, whatever.).

Is it right to force them to have a child? I mean they clearly didn't want one, they were using contraceptives already, why is it wrong for them to use an abortion but contraceptives are fine?

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AS FOR YOUR STUPIDITY INVOLVING THE "SALE OF ABORTION PARTS"

If you believe the sale of dead fetuses for scientific purposes is "immoral" you are a fucking idiot. This shit helps the rest of us with diseases and leads to medical advancement.

Hating on that because it is involved with an abortion is the epitome of stupidity. Stem cell research(as with the other research included here) is better than throwing it in the trash.

And you wonder why I linked you with the conservative arguments?
-Links abortion to genocide
-Links abortion to killing
-Links stem cell research as "immoral".

Originally Posted by Empire

:/ That's a very irrelevant question.

-all the responses to this are irrelevant on the basis of claiming life, so i'm gonna ignore them.

So....shut up if you believe that?

Ugh, the problem is that the topic and the people are the same thing. Moral crusaders who won't help out the kid once he's born will fight for the unborn child not to be aborted. It's "imposing your will upon others" situation where you don't believe it should happen and you voice your opinion, yet you actually don't have a say in the matter.
-------------------------------

Contraceptives and abortion both serve the same purpose: Not to have a child. Comparing the indian removal act with the lousiana purchase is a horrible example, mostly because they aren't related but in the vaguest of sense. Where as abortion and contraceptives have the exact same purpose.

Not only that, you are trying to argue that one is an "atrocity" while one isn't, while they really are the same thing.
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Your view as abortions are "killing" is just naive.

But don't you think that killing the fetus before it having the chance of surviving is pretty much the parents imposing their will on the child?

And also i would like to emphasize that there are some major differences between contraceptives and abortions. Contraceptives prevent a fetus from forming. Abortions kill the fetus while forming. They are two very different procedures. While in both procedures the fetus ultimate does not make it to life, one procedure does it before the fetus starts developing and the other does it while the fetus is developing and is alive.

Like, I said, you keep talking about how the topic and the people that are imposing it are on and the same. If they were, I did show you 2 examples of pro-abortion activists. One is an organization that makes tons of money and believes that "The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." and the other that also makes tons of money off of selling baby parts. So while you are coming at the anti-abortion activists for not helping the baby after it's born, news flash, pro-abortionists don't help the families that get an abortion either. The only way it helps them is by giving them the abortion either for free or a reduced price. Now, do these organizations help the family fix the cause that lead the family to kill their baby in the first place? NO. In most cases, families get abortions because they are either in financial crisis, don't want the baby, or didn't plan to have it. Correct me if I'm wrong(and i'm sincere when I want you to correct me) but these organizations don't do jack shit to help these families out and find out why they got these abortions.

And can you please tell me how I'm naive as to why abortions are killing? Because it is essentially that, am I correct?

There's lots of reasons why abortions are legal. The first and most obvious reason is that rape/incest victims shouldn't have to give birth to a child. I mean just think about a persons psychological state as they carry a baby reliving the torture of being raped every day. Also there's tons of teenagers who die giving childbirth (and their kids usually die also) and you also have to think about how they'll support the child. And even though it's illegal in some places it still happens and many women die from it. Religion ideology, the government and people like yourself have no rights to deny abortion. It's simply unethical.

Originally Posted by Rance-Sama

There's lots of reasons why abortions are legal. The first and most obvious reason is that rape/incest victims shouldn't have to give birth to a child. I mean just think about a persons psychological state as they carry a baby reliving the torture of being raped every day. Also there's tons of teenagers who die giving childbirth (and their kids usually die also) and you also have to think about how they'll support the child. And even though it's illegal in some places it still happens and many women die from it. Religion ideology, the government and people like yourself have no rights to deny abortion. It's simply unethical.

Touche .

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

But don't you think that killing the fetus before it having the chance of surviving is pretty much the parents imposing their will on the child?

And also i would like to emphasize that there are some major differences between contraceptives and abortions. Contraceptives prevent a fetus from forming. Abortions kill the fetus while forming. They are two very different procedures. While in both procedures the fetus ultimate does not make it to life, one procedure does it before the fetus starts developing and the other does it while the fetus is developing and is alive.

Like, I said, you keep talking about how the topic and the people that are imposing it are on and the same. If they were, I did show you 2 examples of pro-abortion activists. One is an organization that makes tons of money and believes that "The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." and the other that also makes tons of money off of selling baby parts. So while you are coming at the anti-abortion activists for not helping the baby after it's born, news flash, pro-abortionists don't help the families that get an abortion either. The only way it helps them is by giving them the abortion either for free or a reduced price. Now, do these organizations help the family fix the cause that lead the family to kill their baby in the first place? NO. In most cases, families get abortions because they are either in financial crisis, don't want the baby, or didn't plan to have it. Correct me if I'm wrong(and i'm sincere when I want you to correct me) but these organizations don't do jack shit to help these families out and find out why they got these abortions.

And can you please tell me how I'm naive as to why abortions are killing? Because it is essentially that, am I correct?

On imposing parents will.
No, I don't. Unborn children don't have a say in anything nor do they have any rights. They are not counted as civilians or people in any sense, especially regarding the law, and even in culture until the child is born it is not counted as a child.
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On the topic of people vs the argument.
Again, you are moral-crusading in this argument, you aren't using logic or facts but trying to tempt emotions and feelings. What happens with you and other people doing this is that you don't actually care about the family, the kid, anyone who's getting an abortion or the child getting aborted. What you do care is that they follow how you want them to live.

Pro abortions support the right of people to do whatever they want with their body, they support the right that if people want to pay to do something to it, they can. Anti-abortions want those people to go through the entire process of pregnancy, raising or losing a child, all for the sake of their moral compass.

It's the same argument you have for why gay marriage isn't legal, same argument for why weed is illegal, it's the whole "it's immoral according to me"
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On contraceptives:

It's the same end product without much difference. Before or after conception isn't the point and many abortions are due to "accidents" that happen during sex.
-Again, people shouldn't be forced to do something because of your moral compass.
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On "killing the child".

Please, explain to me how you think of an unborn fetus as a child and where you draw the line. Because that's all you are doing, drawing lines and then saying "my morals are on this side".

If you have a reason it should be illegal outside of some petty emotional triggers for an unborn fetus or embryo, then list them.

Your invalid arguments thus far:
-Trying to compare it to murder.
-Using religious backers
-Quoting the "founder" of abortion clinics in America.
-Emotional triggers.
-Claiming scientific research is wrong
-Claiming making money as a doctor is wrong.

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