Why a Wall Won't Stop Immigration
Originally Posted by PTMartin
I'm not strictly focusing on Mexican illegals. I've said repeatedly that all illegals are a problem as well as legal immigration. We need to take a break to assimilate and take care of the people that are already here.
It's one good, practical solution that works. That's the important thing. But hey, if you've got a better way to stop half a million/year illegals, do tell.
Wages are matter of supply and demand. Lot's of workers = lot's of supply of labor = low wages. Limited supply of labor and wages have to increase to attract the labor.
Um, no. Minimum wages are artificially government imposed wages that don't allow the market to set the proper level of wages.
Demand for the product of the wages will indeed naturally find the proper balance. Don't want to pay $3.00 for a lb. of tomatoes, demand goes down, producers lower production or find another way to cut costs through mechanization rather than pay for more expensive human labor.
See the above, plus of course that higher wages mean that people have more money in their pocket to spend for higher priced goods.
I guess I care more about Americans then worry about how Mexico will struggle with 10% less money that was taken from potential American pockets.
Yeah, we get it. Walls don't work. Shoelaces don't work. Hoses don't work. Nothing works perfect. Nirvana fallacy.
Of the 51 fortified boundaries built between countries since the end of World War II, around half were constructed between 2000 and 2014.
Why? Because walls do work.
http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mexico/483156/
Oh, and ironically, Mexico is building a 'wall'... on its southern border (to keep illegal immigrants out). Perhaps even more ironic, The US is sending $75m in equipment and training to help stop Central Americans from crossing illegally into Mexico.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...ss-who-paid-it
Cool. Let's see how well they do with higher priced US made shit vs how well we do with higher priced Mexican made shit. If they don't want a trade war, then they can just kick in and help with our wall like we helped with their wall.
LOL, so we should be bribing them with aid so that they will trade with us? I'm guessing they will trade whether we bribe them or not.
Supply and demand of labor sets wages as explained above. No willing labor, and wages rise. Rising wages means more income for workers to buy stuff.
Walls work and they work well. Not perfect but very well. I've put to rest now all the excuses from the OP why a wall won't work. Most of the discussion here has be back and forth about economics. There are plenty of options on funding the wall. That is really a non-issue.
Several European countries have erected fences to keep migrants out, and, according to the numbers, every case appears to have a large impact.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...art-has-answer
It's one good, practical solution that works. That's the important thing. But hey, if you've got a better way to stop half a million/year illegals, do tell.
Wages are matter of supply and demand. Lot's of workers = lot's of supply of labor = low wages. Limited supply of labor and wages have to increase to attract the labor.
Um, no. Minimum wages are artificially government imposed wages that don't allow the market to set the proper level of wages.
Demand for the product of the wages will indeed naturally find the proper balance. Don't want to pay $3.00 for a lb. of tomatoes, demand goes down, producers lower production or find another way to cut costs through mechanization rather than pay for more expensive human labor.
See the above, plus of course that higher wages mean that people have more money in their pocket to spend for higher priced goods.
I guess I care more about Americans then worry about how Mexico will struggle with 10% less money that was taken from potential American pockets.
Yeah, we get it. Walls don't work. Shoelaces don't work. Hoses don't work. Nothing works perfect. Nirvana fallacy.
Of the 51 fortified boundaries built between countries since the end of World War II, around half were constructed between 2000 and 2014.
Why? Because walls do work.
http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...mexico/483156/
Oh, and ironically, Mexico is building a 'wall'... on its southern border (to keep illegal immigrants out). Perhaps even more ironic, The US is sending $75m in equipment and training to help stop Central Americans from crossing illegally into Mexico.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...ss-who-paid-it
Cool. Let's see how well they do with higher priced US made shit vs how well we do with higher priced Mexican made shit. If they don't want a trade war, then they can just kick in and help with our wall like we helped with their wall.
LOL, so we should be bribing them with aid so that they will trade with us? I'm guessing they will trade whether we bribe them or not.
Supply and demand of labor sets wages as explained above. No willing labor, and wages rise. Rising wages means more income for workers to buy stuff.
Walls work and they work well. Not perfect but very well. I've put to rest now all the excuses from the OP why a wall won't work. Most of the discussion here has be back and forth about economics. There are plenty of options on funding the wall. That is really a non-issue.
Several European countries have erected fences to keep migrants out, and, according to the numbers, every case appears to have a large impact.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-0...art-has-answer
Originally Posted by PTMartin
I'm not strictly focusing on Mexican illegals. I've said repeatedly that all illegals are a problem as well as legal immigration. We need to take a break to assimilate and take care of the people that are already here.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
It's one good, practical solution that works. That's the important thing. But hey, if you've got a better way to stop half a million/year illegals, do tell.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
Wages are matter of supply and demand. Lot's of workers = lot's of supply of labor = low wages. Limited supply of labor and wages have to increase to attract the labor.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
Um, no. Minimum wages are artificially government imposed wages that don't allow the market to set the proper level of wages.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
find another way to cut costs through mechanization rather than pay for more expensive human labor.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
See the above, plus of course that higher wages mean that people have more money in their pocket to spend for higher priced goods.
And we're going to pretend like we live in a uptopia where the average price of a good is balanced by the average wage a person gets? No. The more money people have the higher goods will be.
And it will always be in the favor of the goods maker. That's how capitalism fucking works.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
LOL, so we should be bribing them with aid so that they will trade with us? I'm guessing they will trade whether we bribe them or not.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
I'm guessing they will trade whether we bribe them or not.
USA wants to keep Mexico happy because it's in their interest to do so, that's how politics works. In trading aspects we need them more than they need us. The only one up we have is foreign aid.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
Supply and demand of labor sets wages as explained above. No willing labor, and wages rise. Rising wages means more income for workers to buy stuff.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
Yeah, we get it. Walls don't work. Shoelaces don't work. Hoses don't work. Nothing works perfect. Nirvana fallacy.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
Walls work and they work well. Not perfect but very well. I've put to rest now all the excuses from the OP why a wall won't work. Most of the discussion here has be back and forth about economics. There are plenty of options on funding the wall. That is really a non-issue.
It's a huge fucking issue.
Originally Posted by PTMartin
Several European countries have erected fences to keep migrants out, and, according to the numbers, every case appears to have a large impact.
I skipped some of your other points because it would just be a back and forth of things that really don't matter such as the "I care about muh american ppl" bs. It's hard to extrapolate some of my other points because I'm on mobile but hey, this is fun.
- - - Updated - - -
Originally Posted by TonySK
Then why make Mexico pay for the wall if there are more returning then entering now?
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/1...ng-to-the-u-s/
What this whole "illegal immigration is a huge crisis that needs to be solved NOW" boils down to is that it's a tactic used by right wing leaders to try and get voters united on an issue. The right-wing states are predominately welfare bum ridden and instead of finding a solution to Americans abusing the welfare system the Republican push the blame on illegals as to why they have no job and need to live off of the governments ballsack.
Originally Posted by TonySK
Then why make Mexico pay for the wall if there are more returning then entering now?
1. Your claim that there is a net loss is highly questionable. Your own citation says, "Measuring migration flows between Mexico and the U.S. is challenging because there are no official counts of how many Mexican immigrants enter and leave the U.S. each year."
We do know that through the first six months of fiscal 2016, which ended on March 31, border officials apprehended 27,754 unaccompanied children, the CBP reported — a 78 percent jump from the 15,616 apprehended in 2015, and just shy of the 28,579 apprehended in 2014.
For family units, which consist of at least one child traveling with at least one adult, the increase was even more dramatic. In the first six months of 2016, 32,117 families were apprehended, the CBP reported — an increase of 131 percent from the 2015 figure (13,913) and 62 percent from the 2014 figure (19,830).
So there absolutely is an increase in illegal immigration and "The forces driving the migration are still strong," with no reason to believe that the illegals are leaving in increasing numbers.
http://thehill.com/latino/278785-mig...mexican-border
2. Even if true, wall would accelerate that ratio.
Originally Posted by Confluency
I'm well aware illegal immigration is a problem, but I'm also well aware walls are not a valid solution.
But, it's not? And yeah, the practical solution would be keeping the foreign aid and supporting those countries in the fight against corruption and helping make the country they are leaving better. A wall is nothing more than a shortsighted solution.
While you'd be right in the majority of jobs, dirty and generally low paying jobs do not fit in that category. The supply of workers will not effect the wages, because people will refuse to work unless the wages are crazy high. And if they were crazy high the person paying the wages for said dirty job would most likely have a net-loss of profits. As I said before, as seen in Alabama when you get rid if the illegals it becomes impossible to find people who want to work generally low paying hard work dirty jobs. It's american culture.
It's a mutual trade relationship, it's not a fucking bribe.
USA wants to keep Mexico happy because it's in their interest to do so, that's how politics works. In trading aspects we need them more than they need us. The only one up we have is foreign aid.
Uh wut, your answers for how the wall will be paid for is destroying trade relations with other countries, cutting foreign aid, and making it less attractive to trade with us.
It's a huge fucking issue.
It's a huge fucking issue.
Yeah, let's take small sample sizes relative to the US and say it works. Walls will work in the US because it somewhat worked in Europe! Kind of how ironically the left wing says socialism would work in the US because it works in smaller European countries huh?
What this whole "illegal immigration is a huge crisis that needs to be solved NOW" boils down to is that it's a tactic used by right wing leaders to try and get voters united on an issue.
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